Honda Accord Hybrid: 50 MPG City - clone Toyota

The ring gear rpm (RPM2)is used for the power to the wheels, mg1 rpm is used for power to mg1(RPM2), and ice RPMI is used for power from the ice.

if C = 2pi/33,000, and ice torque is T

Then
powerEngine = powerRing + powerMG1

CTRPMI = C(.72T)RPM2 + C(.28T)RPM1

If we then divide by CT (2pi/33,000 time torque) we get

RPMI = .72RPM2 + .28RPM1. This is the gear ratio used, and can be derivived from the power equations. Power and torque can not be split by gear ratio except in the special case that RPM2 =RPM1.

 

Where are c's priced that high or Civic hybrids that low? Their base prices are $19k and $24.4k, respectively. The Insight is Honda's Prius c competitor, and it has equivalent pricing.

The Civic is smaller than the Prius, which is part of the reason why it is a poor match up to the Prius.

I agree not having a lower trim can reduce roll out sales, but I also think video games are way over priced when first released. Even with lower trims available, the loaded to the gills models will generally be the first ones on the dealers lots. It maximizes profits from the impatient people, but can also have a role on the production side. Starting with every option is probably a better way to train the line workers, and to ensure all the supply lines are up to par.

If the mpg numbers hold up in the real world, I don't think Honda will have much trouble selling just higher priced trims. They also may have looked at the fact that the majority of Camry hybrids sold are the higher trim. Of course they would still sell more with also having a lower trim, but could they maintain the production numbers without problems arising in quality. It's not just a new hybrid Accord, but also a redesign of the non-hybrid model this year. Honda has a reliability reputation regarding hybrids to overcome, and there are the new model issues of all cars. Why risk compounding that .with an overworked manufacturing staff.

 

Yes, I was confusing the Insight. I actually forgot Honda has been making a Civic hybrid, if that says anything about how successful it's been...

 

just read the hybridcars.com review, they said the outcome was 1.5 mpg higher than the hycam test, so they were pretty happy about it. next is long term reliability. starts at 30k, they would have liked to see a base near the hycam.

 

I couldn't see putting Accord Hybrid anywhere near a Prius liftback: Two VERY different cars: 196 HP vs. 134, 3,550 lbs vs 3,050. Accord will be a solid, fully highway capable machine while Prius is more of a city car that can get by on the open highway, but not with much robustness. No one can convince me Prius liftback is correctly designed for anyone over about 5'10 or maybe 6 ft tall especially with that foul manually adjustable seat. Notice I said 'correctly'. Accord IS designed for drivers well over 6 ft tall.

I wouldn't touch Accord LX with its manually adjustable driver's seat, blech. To me, it's Accord Sport and up.

Accord hybrid goes up against Fusion, Camry, Optima, Sonata hybrids, of course.

 

I agree with Hybridcar's reviewer on Accord Hybrid how Honda takes great care in interior layout for the driver. Accord is a large cut above Camry and IMO it's sad how most put up with IMO sloppy interior ergos in latest Camry. .... Wouldn't be surprised if Accord hybrid gets the nod over Camry from Car and Driver, etc...

but people know Toyota's hybrid reputation, Toyota will undercut Accord Hybrid's price a bunch. I won't be surprised if Accord Hybrid sales take off a little slowly for quite a while. On driveaccord dot net, not much talk about the Accord Hybrid.

Like dude said in another artice, .... about time new Honda Hybrid comes along ... it's Looooooong overdue.

 

I'll bet ES is farily snoozy and boring to drive compared to HAH. Moot point as don't want to get into ES price point.

After the 3rd gen Prius milquetoast driving experience, I'd happy to not buy T/L products again.

But, Prius gets the job done, only in a cerebral, wow that MPG is good, not in visceral way, no excitement in Prius.

 

Accord Plugin is virtually not available, has very small trunk, about 8 cu ft vs 12.x, and bio fabric seats vs. real leather in the HAH touring. Might have couple things like radar cc over the plugin, not sure.

 

Wow, 45 - 47 MPGs on their 120 mile test loop, smoothest drivetrain of all, "... light years ahead of Toyota hybrid system" (that's bold), .

... this guy does really good reviews. sounds like he was trying to get as much info as possible stuffed into alloted time. I don't mind.

Sounds like electrical drive whether all EV or serial hybrid going to get quite the workout cause "engine does not couple to wheels at any time under 44 mph". Hopefully battery and motors can put up with all that for 150k+ miles.

Hate hearing people say Prius liftback is a midsize car. I don't give a rats a$$ if the Prius fits into the EPA midsize slot based on interior cubic ft: Prius does NOT seat 6ft+ driver like true midsize car. guess it's good enough for the well under 6 ft crowd, but geez my niece's 2002 Civic seats me better than Prius.

But, Prius will outsell Accord Hybrid tenfold for a while, cause it's cheap, reliable and hides the hybrid battery well. ...

Too bad Acc Hy has no folddown rear seat, argh. Seems the 12v battery under hood, helps a bit.

 

keep in mind base Camry Hybrid has: manually adjustable driver's seat, blech, ugly black steel wheels with plastic wheel covers, unlike pwr seat and nice alloys in base HAH.

 

I've seen 2009 Camry Hybrid (1st gens) with steel wheels, lower trim. 2nd gen Cam Hy is 2012 later, right?

 

Purely a guess, but Honda may not ever mimic Toyota hybrid system. Perhaps Honda doesn't think it's possible to make HSD much fun to drive, so they opt for the new 'Sport Hybrid' family of drivetrains. C & D has quite a thing for Honda over Toyota terms of driveability, or does Honda give Car and Driver more ad money ?? Never heard a reviewer say Camry has better driving dynamics than Accord.

 

That's a good point. $30k sticker for entry hybrid sedan is pretty steep. Sounds like it's really nice though.

Hopefully it's very reliable short and long term.

 

Planetary gear set is fixed, like a screwdriver. So are the gears in the Accord. The latter comes with a clutch, which a BEV doesn't have. It's very obvious.

 

Except you are not using conservation of energy, and we are on the wrong throead for it, but

Power = C x T x RPM, maybe its easier if we work some numbers.
Concervation of energy, with the power split

CTRPMice = .72CTRPMring + .28CTRPMmg1
Divide by CT, we get the ratio of rpms
RPMice = .72RPMring + .28RPMmg1.

Lets pretend we are acclerating with 20 hp and this makes the ice turn at 2000 rpm (you can use exact numbers if you want). In gen II the ring gear turned at 325 at 5 mph. We can solve

20hp = CT (2000rpm)
CT = 0.01 (hp/rpm)

2000 = (.72)325 + (.28)RPMmg1
RPMmg1 = 6307 rpm

Now we can solve for power at the ring gear and power at mg1
PowerToRing = CTRPMmg1 = 0.01 (.72)(325) = 2.3 hp this power goes mechanically to wheels
PowerToMg1 = 0.01(.28)(6307) = 17.7 hp this power goes to generate electricity

As you can see at 5 mph most energy is taking the electrical not the mechanical path through the psd.

 

Yes, I agree, in the PSD the lower the wheel (thus MG2 or ring) velocity, the lower the mechanical path.

 

Yes, but the accord is lined up as a serial hybrid, which looks exactly like a bev + a engine and generator.

Close the clutch and it looks like a single speed ima. In this parallel/searial hybrid mode during steady state, only the ice will be turning directly to the wheels.

Let's face things, there are some advantages to the honda system, but honda wishing to not pay pattent royalties was likely the mother of this invention.

In the prius mg1 rotation really sets a virtual gear ration between the ice and wheel axle, creating an eCVT. Other than higher efficiency, the ice to wheel speed, will be much like the honda system when its in serial hybrid mode. To make the system like the honda, all toyota would have to do is lock mg1 to 0 rpm in software creating a virtual high gear. The control software for the toyota is more complicated, but this is a one time cost, you don't have to pay it with every car like the additional clutch.

But compared to the price of a car, the cost of a clutch is fairly small. The honda accord system needs a more powerful ice than the toyota system, which may be why honda has a different system in the fit hybrid than the accord. The accord hybrid system though scales more easily than the toyota hsd, and may have advantages for towing.

 

Maybe steelies were the base and alloys an option. I didn't look into the details at the time, but the 1st gen was the Camry hybrid. No LE or other trim designations.

The planetary splits ICE output, and in conjunction with the motors produce the equivalent of varying gear ratios.
The gears in the Accord are completely fixed, and have no ability in changing the engine's output. They are just a drive shaft for the motor's output.
BEV's also don't have an ICE. The Accord hybrid is a serial hybrid, like a locomotive. The ICE and a motor are a genset to produce power for the traction motor. The Accord just has a clutch to allow the ICE to connect directly to the 'drive shaft' at higher speeds.

The HSD kool aid needs to be put down for a moment. These clutches have been around longer than the PSD. They are a well developed piece of technology. Yes, a typical automatic might need more fluid changes than a typical manual. But when was the last time you heard of an automatic just failing? I have never had transmission trouble with my cars. All automatics, and one from 1986. The only one that went bad in my immediate family was my brother's 2000 Accord. That's because Honda didn't make it robust enough for the V6 output, and then the car was in a couple of floods.

There is a fair likelyhood that the next HSD will have a clutches, because decoupling units not in use from the drive train is an easy way of improving efficiency.

Which, I understand, is why Honda developed their own automatic transmission back in the day. A design that isn't scalable past 5 speeds. Thus the switch to CVTs and double clutches in the new hybrids.