Featured "Hippy tax" tag fees?

Where I live and work, people would regularly take a trip into NJ for the cheaper gas. What should Pa do about those cheaters?

What fair, cost effective method of having plug ins help pay for road maintenance is there?

 

Interesting discussion and comments.

What do you guys think about this idea from Norway,
Weight based tax-good or bad idea?

Annual motor vehicle tax and weight-based motor vehicle tax - The Norwegian Tax Administration (skatteetaten.no)

Annual motor vehicle tax and weight-based motor vehicle tax
The annual motor vehicle tax is replaced by a road traffic insurance tax collected by the insurance companies. If you own a vehicle with a permitted gross weight of 7,500 kilos or more, you must still pay the annual weight-based motor vehicle tax to the Norwegian Tax Administration.





How much tax do you have to pay?
The amount you have to pay in weight-based motor vehicle tax depends on the weight, the number of axles and the type of suspension system. The weight-based vehicle tax can therefore vary considerably depending on the vehicle. Diesel vehicles must also pay an environmental tax.

 

That's the point. There is nothing that's fair. You could do it one way or another, but no one would be happy and there'd always be cheaters.

I do think that doing it by mileage would be harder to track than other methods. In my whole half of the state of Colorado there are no emissions tests, so we'd have to self report. Would that really work? Maybe make emissions and mileage checks mandatory, then it would work for the most part.

Personally I say, charge me whatever and however. If I can afford it I'll do it. If not, oh well.

 

This sounds like an insurance tax to replace registrations fees. It likely saves the government the cost of maintaining a database of various car models, and their fee rate. It could also keep insurance rates in check, as customers may shop more often in response to the overall cost increase.

For replacing fuel taxes, it has the same issues as a flat rate. Depending on miles driven, some will pay more for their road use than others It could be acceptable if applied to all. That's the problem with these EV fees. Two different ways of collecting a use tax based on car type results in an unfair system.

Per mile is the direct way of taxing for use. Fuel was a good proxy, when the rates actually covered maintenance costs. That is the main issue to budget shortfalls. Plug ins are just an easy scapegoat. Which is easier than implementing a new system that works regardless of car and fuel type.

The states I've lived in with emission tests also did safety inspections. The idea of not having even a basic safety inspection for all the cars on the road is insane to me.

 

Having visited the U.S. as a tourist, I found it surprising that, for a country so car-focused, the road conditions could be poor. Even in upscale cities encountering potholes and rough patches seemed usual. The system, it seems, isnt functioning as it should already.

Beyond this, there's the often overlooked costs associated with car infrastructure, such as healthcare burdens and the like, which we all shoulder in one way or another. In Europe, these costs manifest more directly through public healthcare. Moreover, the current EV incentives seem to favor those who can readily afford and charge their EVs - funded by tax dollars, including from those who cant benefit directly.

 

NJ could just take the tolls they collect on the NJ Turnpike and spread it out. I had a place want me to work there where it would be 70 miles round trip. It comes out to $100 a week in tolls. No thanks.

 

Maybe miles driven plus vehicle weight.

 

welcome to utopia, and the us federal tax system

 

It would seem that in a nearly perfect world every where there'd be periodic inspections (yearly?) that determine the distance traveled (and perhaps safety and emissions). Then you could take the GVRW and mileage and calculate a (yearly?) fee that correspond to the amount of damage done to the roads.

Of course GVRW won't give you the exact weight. What if it's a pickup owner that tows a 10,000lb trailer? If he owns a 10,000 GVWR trailer, do we attempt to figure out how many miles he towed it? Did he load it clear up to 10,000lbs or was it used for lighter materials that averaged a total weight plus trailer of 4,000lbs? What about the pickup itself? Did he driver around carrying half a ton of gravel in it?

Also, without GPS tracking or license plate scanning, how would a person know if the driver mainly drove in the county or state he is taxed in? Or do we setup license plate scanning tolls (perhaps with integrated instant weigh stations) all over the country?

Then again, what about business owners? There used to be (or perhaps still are) incentives to buying +6,000lb vehicles. Would we do the same with road taxes? Would we base it on people that actually own a business or just on vehicle size? In the end, maybe it would cost the same per mile to drive a 3,500lb vehicle as a 7,000lb vehicle.

I don't know what the right answer would be.

 

people cheat on their taxes, so let's just deep 6 the whole system

 

Ya, well, 3 thousand years ago everyone had to pay a simple 10% "tax" or the whole nation would be exiled to Babylon.

Today, if the square root of the most common denominator of your retirement portfolio's common capital gains is a multiple of a prime number, as figured in hexadecimal, means you owe the resulting factor when divided by the current barometric pressure over the smallest hill in the Rocky Mountains in lumens:

then, well, you might as well as not report it.

Personally, I'll try to figure it out and try to pay my fair share, whatever the government decides.

 

that's why restaurant servers aren't subject to minimum wage

 

Technically they are but technically they aren't.

A tipped employee that doesn't recieve enough tips to make at least minimum wage is entitled to compensation from their employer; enough to make it a minimum wage.

But how often do employers pay that to their under tipped workers? Mostly never. I would be the one to know. I used to make $3 an hour with basically zero tips in the USA in the 21st century as a restaurant employee back around the 2008 financial crisis.

 

For commercial class trucks, yes.
For personal vehicles, their weight isn't high enough to make much difference to road damage. If the goal of the tax is to pay for roads only, then it doesn't need a weight component for cars.

What about the people towing with cars that don't have an official tow rating?
How about we address road use fees for trailers in the fees and registrations for the trailer instead of trying to figure out how to make it fairly work for the car or truck.

We don't worry about paying fuel taxes in one state, and then mostly driving in another. Why does it suddenly become a concern with the idea of per miles taxing? Because it allows better tracking of citizens?

A GPS or plate scanning system adds to the cost of collecting the tax. On top of that, the states with programs testing it outsource the GPS monitoring to a contractor. Some tax revenue is skimmed for their profits.

Businesses already deduct fuel expenses for taxes. They will do the same with a mileage tax.

Vehicles that aren't exempt fuel economy testing should be charged the same rate. As I said before, the weight differences don't matter to road wear.

 

Simple is best.

I like flat tax - if you drive and own a vehicle you pay a flat tax when it is registered each year - trailers must be registered so they have a flat tax also.

Semis pay a flat tax as well as per mile tax. This is passed on somewhat by shipping charges to the customer.

Flat tax rates are determined by vehicle class - every vehicle on the road must pay the appropriate tax for their vehicle.

No exemptions so don't try to apply for any.

States are responsible each year supplying an accounting cost and budget and publishing an accounting of cost and revenue for public viewing. Rates are adjusted yearly to meet costs. The law would have a provision that it is illegal for a state to charge more tax than necessary to balance cost and finance future projects. Excess funds are put on the upcoming years budget to reduce tax burdens - a negative balance must be financed on the next years budget.

Road department fraud is punishable by a mandatory sentence and money must be paid back by offending parties.
All work must be done by done by bidding out jobs.
It is strictly forbidden to specify bids to union companies. All companies must be allowed to bid on the work and paid at the ongoing rate.
All Contractors will post bond for any road contracts given that are forfeited if work is not done as specified by law.

Prision Labor will be provided by each state as requested by contractor with a stipulation that a certain percent of the prison work force provided must be trained in the operation of heavy machinery and skilled positions to aid in their rehabilitation. The prisoners will be paid in an escrow account to reimburse their victims and enter the program on a volunteer basis. After they reimburse their victims and pay the state back for housing and feeding them, they may begin to accrue money into personal accounts. Any work infractions they are warned once and after a second warning they are expelled from the program.

 

A very small supply side tax on fossil fuels in general (extremely unpopular amongst special interests) would likely generate more revenue than fees on individuals.

This could go a small way to motivating all manner of businesses to become more efficient as well.
Making raw plastic more expensive is never a bad thing either

Currently there is a national tax called municipal substation taxes, it goes from relatively low to egregious in places like Rhode Island, currently this tax is misused/abused on all manner of useless half baked initiatives including funding strip mall development.

Considering everyone with an electric bill pays it indirectly and the fact that roads are a common good and wasting electricity should be punished from a pollution standpoint you could just heap it in there (not that it isn’t already)

what few realize is how regressive fixed fees can become if we try to front load the large 30 year road funding deficits into a fee.
Areas with $25 registrations could balloon into property tax levels (multiple thousands of dollars)

Scott Fitzgerald said as much a decade ago that every man woman and child owes $10,000 a year to repair state infrastructure.

unavoidable fees on individuals are always optional and rife with inefficiency and legal/enforcement costs.

 

The point was, how do we charge those that wear out the road by the percentage that they wear it out? If weight doesn't matter much for smaller vehicles, would towing a trailer make a difference? Apparently it's big trucks that cause the most wear. Correct?

I must admit I was overthinking it. But the point is I don't see how to make a perfect system.

I agree that simple can be better. The more complicated it is the more loopholes there are.

 

That's why I support mileage fees if we insist on some type of direct use taxation.

Roads are engineered for commercial truck weights. Those vehicles apply wear to the road bed when they roll by. Passenger cars are only wearing the road surface in comparison. Their greater numbers on the road are more of a factor than the individual models' weight.

Applying a weight based fee to cars that is fair to the amount of difference in wear will likely end up being too small bother with, after accounting for the increase administration fees for tracking the different model and trim weights vs a flat rate for just passenger cars. The states I have lived in had separate fees for trucks and cars. That leads to things like old Rangers getting charged more than family sedans and minivans, and that's before political wrangling like declaring SUVs are station wagons.

So I see a flat rate for passenger vehicles being the simple and fair way of handling it. Start with weight based methods for the CAFE exempt ones; the 2500 and higher class trucks. These are more likely to be chosen over the 1500 class by those that do more hauling of heavy loads and trailers.

As for trailers, while the more wheels means more friction on the road surface, the combined weight is getting carried more wheels. The pressured applied to the road at the contact points may be no higher than that of the loaded truck alone. I haven't taken a close look into registration schedules for them, but think it would be easier to address their road use there.

 

Re: Virginia
In addition to charging all cars over 25 MPG extra annual fees, we charge new cars $thousands of dollars each year as a property tax, up to 5+% in northern Virginia. There is a discount for car value under $20k but that is getting smaller factor. That is used for local tax. It is effectively an anti-new-car tax, although the real purpose (apparently) is to allow lower property tax 1.x% on homes, traditional property.

 

Here is the simple method:
Each year when your DMV sends you your registration renewal they bill you for miles traveled the past year automatically. They set the starting number to the average for the state for example. Or something like 12K miles.
You can then
a) pay the amount shown
b) declare fewer miles and pay that amount
c) declare more miles and pay that amount
Done.

You might be thinking that everyone will cheat.
The DMV keeps your running total odometer reading. When you sell your car or it goes out of service it has to get checked by the DMV, a certified inspection station or maybe even insurance companies. This number goes back to the DMV and they calculate your final total and bill you. If you have paid too little by more than a year of miles or so you get penalized. If you've overpaid you get a refund or credit on your next car.

Easy since the car owner hardly has to do anything. DMV does a little software. Different cars and trucks can have different rates

Mike