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Here is VW's 5-10 yr vision. What is Toyota's?

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by mozdzen, Jun 16, 2016.

  1. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    what do you define as "soon"?
     
  2. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Not until after 2020, at least.
     
  3. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    Right about SSD's, but that doesn't mean I don't buy one for my laptop to give it a speed boost.
     
  4. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Me too. But at the same time I bought a 500gb 950Pro, I also bought a 4TB 2.5 external.

    The difference is, owning both of those is cheap. Owning a Model 3 for around town and a Prius for longer trips is expensive.
     
  5. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    Not if I need 2 cars anyway in the family. Two working adults = 2 cars. Many people have a 3rd vehicle like a pickup truck to take off road or on primative roads, as well as to move furniture, etc. So having a 2nd car for around town purposely only is a fact of life for many people already. Why can't that one be an EV?
    Also, A model 3 owner is buying a front row seat to the rise of the practical EV era, and funding further development of the next generation of EVs. To some people, the price of admission is worth it. (yes - to others it is not - and if someone is still building their nest egg, then I'd say any car costing over $15,000 is not the best decision for them). There are various numbers of people in each category, and each will find unique optimization strategies.
     
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  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    According to some the Prius isn't niche.:rolleyes: Then it and the new Rav4 are the only hybrids selling in remarkably greater numbers than nationally available BEVs. The Rav4 hybrid sold only 27 more cars than the Model S last month. Small SUVs and Crossovers are the big thing now, and a hybrid one is doing marginally better than a BEV car that starts at about twice the price. The rest of the hybrids are in the noise with the PHEVs and BEVs.
    September 2016 Summary | PriusChat

    As a segment, hybrids have been out for a decade longer than any plug in, with a wider range of models to choose from than plug ins. Yet they are still under 3% of total personal vehicle sales in the US. Then the number of available plug in models has grown faster in the past 6 years faster than hybrids did in their first ten.
     
  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's an overly simplistic summary which portrays circumstances as being similar. We can argue difference details until the cows come home, but it won't do any good. A fundamental mistake continues to be made... sadly, by the majority. Most people are overlooking scope. They assume the audience is just a growing number of homogeneous buyers. Who they are isn't being taken into account. Such a flaw in logic must be brought to the attention of all those celebrating the supposed faster progress.

    Reality is, current buyers are still only early adopters. That low-hanging fruit is running out too. We haven't seen any affordable offerings selling in a market without tax-credits either. If the subsidy money runs out before those vehicles become well established as a mainstream choice, potential buyers will just move on to something else. Why purchase a plug-in when their prices aren't competitive with traditional vehicles running on cheap gas?

    Audience is absolutely vital. Sighting statistics that only represent early adopters causes us to incorrectly perceive progress.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    So hybrids are still niche then?
     
  9. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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  10. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    It takes about 14 years for half of the cars sold today to be removed from the road by natural attrition.
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    fortunately then - those 14 + year old cars going to the scrap yard are typically the ones putting out the most toxic exhaust - so that would seem to be a win-win.
    .
     
  12. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    My point was, you could maybe ban the sale of IC cars in 14 years, but not the operation of them since so many will still be around. To ban their operation in 14 years, you'd have to have banned their sale about 10 years ago.
     
  13. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    Average age 11.4 yrs
    253 million cars and light trucks on the road
    253 million cars and trucks on U.S. roads; average age is 11.4 years - LA Times
    17 million cars and light trucks sold per year
    Auto Sales - Markets Data Center - WSJ.com
    scrapped 12 million vs buying 17 million (42% * 12 million = 5 million --> bought 42% more new cars than scrapped cars)
    Average age of cars on U.S. roads breaks record

    So if the scrap to buy new ratio were 1 to 1, it would take ~23 yrs to replace 250 million cars on the road today. I would think that the number of new cars bought vs cars scrapped would not be so huge in the future - perhaps track the US population increase someway?

    As for Germany, in 2014 there were ~44 million cars registered and 60 million vehicles in general
    2015 Germany Total Number of Registered Cars
    3 million car sales
    average age 9 yrs
    2015 (Full Year) Germany: Best-Selling Car Brands

    It seems Germans buy new cars at a faster rate than people in the US and it might only take them 10 yrs to clear out the majority of cars.
    It did state somewhere that they still had ~1 million cars registered that were 30 or more years old.

    The other factor not considered in this discussion is the ratio of driven miles to car age. All of the discussion was assuming that each of these cars puts on the same number of miles driven each year.

    For me, my older vehicle gets fewer miles added each year than the newer ones.

    Bottom line - yes, any transition will take a decade or two to make a dent in the makeup of whats on the road.
     
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    the question is, who's doing the pushing in germany, how much power do they have, and how can they overcome the mentality that let vdub get away with cheating, even after they knew about it?
     
  15. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    I'm sure there will be resistance, but just the mere fact that it is being discussed is a big "wow" for me. Imagine how many rotten tomatoes would get thrown at anyone here suggesting the US do something similar.
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    probably no more than over there.
     
  17. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    I'd like to see cars become more standardized and modular. When EVs become so maintenance free and can last decades, then it would be neat to change out the infotainment unit and battery as technology changes.

    That's because their cars don't last as long as other manufacturers. I'd have reliability anxiety if I drove any VeeDub older than 5 years.
     
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  18. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    It's not banning usage of combustion-engined cars, it's banning registration of new ones, so replacement rates aren't as much of a concern for this.
     
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    the quote from the article, 'ev's require only 10% of the work force as combustion engine vehicles' tells me everything i need to know.
     
  20. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    Bisco - just the opposite. The proposal has gained cross party support in Germany. I can not imagine the GOP saying that is a good idea when they don't even accept global warming, or science for that matter. I can see many Dems shooting this down as government is choosing winning and losing technologies (and not to mention, not enough money is flowing into my district for project X). Not using the "free market" tool to pick winners and losers, hmmm, definitely a harder sell here than there. Although here it is a deception too in that very few of our markets are truly free when any portion of it is subsidized or taxed. Both systems have risks and rewards, that much I'll admit, but stop there with any other political references.

    "A proposal to stop sales of new combustion-engine cars by 2030 has gained cross-party support in Germany's Bundesrat, the country's upper house of parliament, Der Spiegel reported."

    note the word cross-party, that's what really amazes me.