Has GM overdesigned the Volt: Is a 40-mile all electric range too much?

Does anybody know what the sustained max power draw from the battery in deplete-mode is spec'd for the Volt ? Good links get extra Karma.

 

I think that's the point.... more ISN'T better. If you have a 40 mile charge and you need to go 60 miles, you just go 60 miles... the first 40 on pure EV, and the second 20 the gas will kick in and get you there.

Those pushing for higher and higher range will need more and more battery storage = higher cost. The 40 mile range wasn't a number picked out of a hat.... About 5 years ago, I saw a presentation on PHEVs by Dr. Andy Frank. I remember him saying that there had been all kinds of studies done to evaluate what the true need was for pure EV range. Again, remember, this is for PHEVs.... when you run out of battery, you keep going on the gas.

 

we did have a great railroad. but it was run by a very small group of greedy people who despite their enormous reputations,

were not

good businessmen
not very smart
self centered egotists

who attempted (and failed) to right their shortcomings by giving away a lot of their money.

what they did not do was build any support for their business, nor did they reinvest, spend money on research or try to partner with other large businesses in order to expand their offering and worth to the community.

so they were destined to fail. and now we are left with a small enclave of the very rich who took the money skimmed off the business to live out the rest of their lives in luxury

the railroad concept is so right on so many different levels, but its like being associated with hitler...

does anyone really care that hitler took a country that was shattered in to pieces and rebuilt it to become a major power in a few short years orchastrating one of the greatest financial turnarounds in history??

ya... thats what i thought.... well the railroads screwed over so many people on so many different levels, they might as well be called hitler

 

AND more weight. There comes a point of diminishing returns. More and more battery weight means more structural strength which adds more weight. This requires a different suspension system with larger wheels and wider tires, all adding weight and drag. Until someone builds a lighter battery that has all of the right performance and reliability characteristics necessary, the limits of weight are quite real.

 

what a waste of time

gm, put if off another 6 months, by then you will have worn out your welcome in Washington and then we can stop looking at you PERIOD

 

Great thread! Almost didn't read it because I thought it would only be about a car that does not exist from a company that I hate.

Lots of good stuff from trains to BEVs to PHEVs. I still see a lot of "...EVs will never work because I drive __ (insert number here) miles everyday....". No single vehicle will work for everyone all the time.
ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL! Most families own two (or more) cars, rarely would both need to be long distance capable.

In 2 to 5 years we should see a full range of "alternative" cars to meet all sorts of "needs".

-PHEV with all EV ranges from 20 to 100miles. Pick your range and price.

-BEVs from 50 to 200?. Pick your range and price. PV optional.

-NEVs for very short range.

-Small trucks and vans for city deliveries (both BEV and PHEV)
I want lots of options from lots of manufacturers!

Random Thoughts:

-Stimulus package should massively "stimulate" the battery industry.
Buy or liberate the Cheveron battery Patent (tell the republicans its a national security issue). We should be exporting battery technology, not importing. Stimulus bill should be creating industries not just jobs. Stimulus bill should prepare us for when gas is $4 again and we all know it will be. Next time gas hits $4 we could just say, "No thanks, don't need it"
Create a $100M X-Prize.

-Buy the car but lease the battery. Lowers initial cost, eliminates fears of investing too much in soon to be old technology. Able to upgrade.


-Stations to swap out batteries for longer trips will not work in USA.
Too many roads and locations. Too many different sizes. The number of batteries and locations needed would be huge and it would totally fail if the batteries were in the wrong location and not available when I need them. Until battery technology drastically changes we will need PHEV or ICE or LLB (long lunch break) for long distance.

-Instead of investing large sums in expensive infrastructure (electric highways, swapping stations, every parking lot having charging stations, hydrogen highway, etc) let's focus on creating a BEV/PHEV industry that meets 80-90% of our needs.

-More Car-Share programs for our twice a year need for truck or big SUV or long road trip.

-Charging stations will not require government spending! We already know that most recharging will be done at night in the privacy of our own home. But if I owned a restaurant or truck stop half way between LA and Las Vegas or LA and SF, I would be installing charging stations for my front row parking and giving electricity away for free. If I was a big employer or retailer, I would be putting front row charging stations in for my employees or customers. Bonus points if I give you covered parking (covered with PV of course). If I owned an apartment complex, motel, etc etc. How about a combo parking meter/charging station, just swipe that credit card, buy time and juice. Free enterprise will take care of this part of the equation.


-Grid Improvements will be needed. First and cheapest: time of day metering and pricing. BEVs should be recharged overnight when we have excess capacity. Second: add distributed PV right in the cities, cover the rooftops. My neighborhood sucks for PV (too many trees and roofs run the wrong direction) but the corner store has 50,000 sf of wasted roof. Third and most expensive: extend power lines from cities to rural wind and solar.

-At some point the electric supply in the USA will need to be nationalized ,and no I am not a communist. For-profit power generation will conflict with efficency. Does Xcel Energy really want my Net-Zero-Energy home as a customer? As we move more to Renewable Energy it will become less profitable to maintain the capacity for the cloudy, wind free day. Things that are not profitable AND require huge amounts of capital tend to be better done by government (like water supply and education).

-Require government vehicles to be EV (easily 40-60% could work)(American made of course). Create demand! Government is buying vehicles anyway, why not buy green, non oil burning, low maintence. Easy over night charging at lower rates.

-Recreate the rail system in the most populated areas of the country.
Take a high speed train from LA to SF and rent a small BEV right at the station. Door to door it should be faster than flying. Half of all long distance freight should be on our new improved rail system.

-Work with auto makers to fast track diesels like the Ford Fiesta ECOnetic (63 mpg) for approval in the USA. Does a 63mpg diesel really pollute more than a SUV? As we move more freight by rail, diesel will come down in price.

-Life on an Island. Just got back from Cozumel. Great diving, but the congestion and air pollution from 600 cabs and 1000 rental cars was over whelming. It's a frick'in island, NO ONE could drive more than 100 miles if they wanted to and the center of the island is perfect for large scale PV! Other than a few delivery trucks and a few hybrid buses there should not be a single ICE on the island! Same with Hawaii!

-Stimulate non-corn, low-water ethanol. Switchgrass, hemp, caster beans, algae, anything is better than million year old fossil fuels bought from terrorists. First step on this is to do away with the Iowa Caucus so presidential candidates could stop kissing the nice person of the corn industry.

-Fix ICEs, they will still exist. Require Flex Fuel (costs $100/car). Require Real Time MPG displays (another $100?) I bet the mileage of even a monster SUV could improve with instant feed back.

-Spend stimulus money on bike paths and mass transit.

Instead of GM begging Congress for money they should be reading this forum and seeing opportunity, not crisis. Instead of Congress giving the Not So Big Three, $30B or $40B more, why not give all the small alternative car companies a billion or so with a requirement that they need to use domestic vendors. Big shot in the arm for Detroit and Ohio and Indiana.

Done ranting (for now)

 

well i see GM back in Washington with its hands out

Force them to develop a BEV...then they have the money...no development money?? well guess you will have to bring back the EV 1, sell it until you can get the money

 

I'm going to call this out every time I see it. That's 76.3mpg on the EU NEDC dyno test. The Prius gets 65.7mpg on the same test. The raw dyno result is reported; it is not discounted as the EPA used to do (perhaps still does? this is unclear), and the test does not include cold weather, A/C use, or high-speed driving (added to EPA tests in '06). It uses a different driving cycle. Do not compare EU to EPA figures.

It's hard to say whether it pollutes more than an SUV. Choose one for comparison from here, but compare only within Euro 4 (the Fiesta hasn't been tested to Euro 5 yet, and I think there might be a change in the test parameters since the X3 xDrive 20 shows much lower emissions on Euro 5, unless that's a model change as well).

 

Thanks for the correction. I knew I was comparing apples to oranges, but my point is diesels have come along way in MPG and emissions.

If we are going to rebuild the American auto industry, it would be great if the Big 3 could bring in high mileage cars they have already developed. Are the EU countries really that much easier on emissions or are they just easier on red tape and testing? Would US cars be more competitive in the world markets if we all adopted the same standards?

There are a lot of things we could be doing for the US auto industry other than just handing them money. Bringing high mileage US built cars to the US market would be #1.

 

Ouch! Talk about a poke in GM's eye. The study says the 40-mile range requires too much battery at too high of a cost ($16,000 for the Volt's battery!?). It recommends a smaller battery with a shorter range. Hmm. The Prius plug-in supposedly is aimed at a 7- to 10-mile EV range.

It is hard to evaluate this report, though. It seems to strongly criticize a car that isn't even available.

(Well, I guess that hasn't stopped a few of us at PC from making such criticisms.)

 

I'm surprised that no one has noted that the argument raised in the study is the same argument used to state that the Prius is not cost effective.

Everyone know that the Prius is not cost effective because you will never save enough gas during the normal lifetime of a Prius to recoup it's extra cost. Isn't that so?

 

depends Marlin. you could easily save a bundle on gas if your previous vehicle got 15 mpg and you drive a lot.

 

The EU has different emission standards for diesel and gasoline cars. Diesels are allowed to emit more NOx while gasoline cars are allowed more CO. EU standards are here: Emission Standards: Europe: Cars and Light Trucks

The EU and US also have different crash standards. You can't just sell a EU approved car in the US.

It would make it much easier for all automakers if countries could agree on one standard and cars would cost less too. Considering the US won't adopt the metric system, I don't see this happening any time soon.

 

Marlin, it actually is a bit different.
The argument that the Prius doesn't pay for itself is a faulty argument. The Prius 'pays for itself' far faster than a car with leather seats or a sunroof.
This article seems to be looking at how far people need to drive vs the weight added from the batteries.
The problem with this statement is it is highly subjective. Everyone will have a different number in mind. I think 40 miles is ok, personally I would prefer 60 or 75.

 

It's difficult to compare these things directly because the tests are so different. However, we know the Prius is nearly identical in both markets, except for the coolant thermos which should reduce emissions in the US compared to Europe, and counts as very low emissions in the US. (We also don't have the bladder, but this relates to evaporative emissions which aren't even tested in Europe.)

The British government makes a complete data download available, for all cars tested in the UK. Sorting by the emissions columns, the Prius is, out of 3,795 entries:

1,369th on Carbon Monoxide
130th on HC emissions (*)
256th on NOx

(This includes diesel vehicles; Excel just hides, does not renumber, the rows if you use filters.)

* Diesels are not all tested for raw HC emissions, but if it was, it's included in this sequence.

In other words, the Prius is surprisingly high on toxic emissions relative to the rest of the market. It does now have a five-year-old emissions control system.

The legal limits may be high, but they're high to allow for crap like the Cadillac Escalade 6.2 V8 automatic 6 (worst CO at 1.972g/km, 10x Prius emissions), Range Rover 4.2 V8 Supercharged automatic 6 (worst HC at 0.145g/km, 7x Prius emissions - the VW Golf Plus 1.9 TDI is listed as 0.186g/km but I didn't think there was a requirement to test diesels so I think this is erroneous), and the Volvo XC90 D5 Geartronic automatic 6 (0.38g/km NOx, 38x Prius).

Worst petrol-powered car for NOx is the Renault Clio RenaultSport 197 6-speed manual, at 0.079g/km - the Euro 4 limit is 0.08g/km.

A car GM might consider bringing over would be the variable-timing 1.8 litre five-door Vauxhall/Opel Astra, 4-speed auto. With 15" or 16" wheels it achieves these results:

0.367g/km CO (2.03x Prius)
0.053g/km HC (2.65x Prius)
0.040g/km NOx (4x Prius)

The Prius comparison predicts Bin 5.

Oh wait, GM have already done this - it sells as a Saturn Astra and is indeed in Bin 5/ULEV II.

The predominant reason the European market has higher-mileage vehicles is that we accept slower accelerations, lower top speeds, hatchbacks, and smaller vehicles. I was amazed when looking just now to find out that the VW Rabbit (= Polo in the UK) has a 2.5 litre engine in the US. The biggest Polo engine in the UK is the 1.6, which gets 42.2mpg Imperial, and has emissions of 0.152 CO, 0.038 HC, 0.040 NOx. It would probably be Bin 5.

It's good to see that manufacturers are targetting lower emissions than the statutory maximums.

 

skip to the bottom of the article. he nailed it

It is more important to get well-engineered plug-in vehicles into production as soon as possible and get them out there than to worry about what amount of range is best.

GM??? hello?? can you understand this statement!!

 

GM can only understand how to siphon off workers' health and retirement money to give top executives billions of dollars in return for bankrupting the company. Ain't capitalism great?

 

Okay, time for my rant.

I agree with the person who compared it to their need for a truck. I also need a truck about once or twice a year and I usually borrow somebody's. But if I had to, I'd rent one. I think Home Depot rents them for $19 an hour or something like that.

As for taking a trip, I like to travel by plane. If it was somewhere I needed to drive, I'd go rent a hybrid of some kind. And, I agree with the statement about Europe's rail system. Public transport is very poor in the USA, and almost non-existent in Texas where I live.

Why make a decision on what car to buy based on what suits your needs 1% of the time? I make my purchasing decision based on my needs 99% of the time and make other arraingments on those other times.

As for actual mileage. I think for a serial hybrid design like the Volt, 20 miles is probably enough. But there is more to it than that. Since I designed and built my own EV a few years ago, I've learned it isn't quite so simple. When you pull a lot of power from the batteries, it is bad on them. So usually you need a battery pack of a certain size just so you can lower the load on each individual cell. a 40-mile pack is probably about right for dividing the load out. Anything smaller and it would reduce the life of the batteries.

But seriously, the EV I built only goes 20 miles on a charge and you'd be amazed how much you can do with that. 40 miles would be even better, but not really that important considering the volt will always have the gas engine to fall back on.