Has anyone installed the BT Brace on the 2006?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(samkusnetz @ May 8 2006, 02:28 PM) [snapback]251593[/snapback]</div>

i think it is obvious where the weakness of the curved panel is. if you don't have a brace, the curve could widen just from sag. but i'll let the mechanics and structural engineers weigh in on this.

but there is no "knee" that could apply this force in the real world.

it's the attachment points that make a difference. imagine leaving only one screw on each end of the brace, and you will see that even if you multiply the surface area, it makes no difference.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 8 2006, 03:27 PM) [snapback]251628[/snapback]</div>

you're not suggesting that i accept something i don't understand, are you?

glad you agree.

i think some people are reporting that they could not tell for sure what the difference was and one person reported that his wife noticed improved handling when the BT brace was NOT installed.

i disagree of course

nope, i'm not convinced there's enough grounds to even try it.

c'mon. i used to drive a maxima (265hp, 18inch wheels, stiff suspension). that! was a sportscar feel. i have no illusions that the prius will handle like a sports car.

 

my point is simple:

the benefit of the BT brace if it is real should be rationally explainable, not magical, and doesn't have to be taken on faith.

i have presented the reasons why i think the BT brace cannot be more effective than the OEM brace. if somebody can explain why the analysis is defficient or completely wrong, i'd like to hear. that's all.

remember: testimonials are the weakest form of evidence

 

MOLE

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(electricity_guzzler @ May 8 2006, 03:49 PM) [snapback]251648[/snapback]</div>

If a Maxima is your idea of a sports car, then you are missing out on quite a bit. My Volvo XC90 has 324 hp, 18" wheels, and stiff suspension, but strangely no sports car feel. Drive a REAL sports car, and you'll see even your Maxima is a marshmallow in comparison.

I don't think anyone here has an real misconception that their Prius will ever handle like a real sports car. What we (and me in particular, check my thread below...) is that with the BT brace and other mods, the Prius WILL handle much, much better than before. It will feel sporty even. But it will never be a "sports car."

The only way it would be close is if you stripped the interior of ALL creature comforts, remove all seats but drivers, stripped the carpet, removed the spare and so on, added some sort of forced induction, and bolted on some sort of real suspension. Even the TRD would be sufficient with the reduced weight. But then you wouldn't have a practical car any more. But that doesn't mean you can't make it handle better.

MOST (certainly not all) have said that they felt a distinct difference after installing the BT brace. I also installed two other braces, and plan on installing two more. I can now take my Prius to the limits of the stock suspension. Once I get the TRD Sportivo kit I ordered, that will be taken care of too. Maybe it will even out handle your Maxima...

Anyway, what it comes down to is that you certainly don't have to buy one if you don't want to. Just dont sit here and say it doesn't help until you've tried it yourself.

Oh, and if you reall need proof, find the original post from Brian, and you'll see he did a FULL structural analysis of the BT and stock plates. The BT is FAR stiffer than the stock one. But don't take my word for it...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ May 8 2006, 09:11 PM) [snapback]251851[/snapback]</div>

dude, the xc90 is an SUV. i'll see your volvo and raise (race) it anytime on twisty curvy roads.

btw, not saying the maxima is the best sporty car, that would have to be something with less than 4 seating capacity. just saying that i'm not completely clueless. btw i didn't start the sports car comparison.

 

Ahhhh.
All this talk about sports cars and windy mountain roads has me reminiscing about my Alfa Romeo Spyder convertible What is it about those Italians? Great food, great architecture, and fun cars!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(electricity_guzzler @ May 8 2006, 10:54 PM) [snapback]251923[/snapback]</div>

WHAT? The XC90 is an SUV? No wonder...

I didn't say it was a sports car. I actually said, "strangely no sports car feel." I used it as a comparison showing that just because a vehicle has the statistics you posted doesn't really mean anything. These days plenty of cars have those stats and they are not only NOT sports cars, but not even sporty. The XC90 is but one example.

Then you have "sports cars" that really aren't. I had a Mercedes 560SL. 300 hp, 350 lb-ft of torque. Two seats. The thing could make huge clouds from roasted tires if you wanted (great times before traction control!). But the damn thing handled like a boat with a drunk captain. It was not a sports car even though it was sold as one.

Cars are not always what they seem (or marketed as). The Prius has potential, and things like the BT brace help.

And you'd be mistaken about the "less than 4 seating capacity." There are many examples of cars that have more than 2 seats yet are world class sports cars:

Porsche 911
McLaren F1
Maserati Quattroporte
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti
BMW M3
BMW M5
BMW M6
Mercedes E55 AMG
Audi RS4 (a wagon no less!)
Nissan Skyline
and others...



The Prius will never be a sports car, but don't be so quick to downplay how effective things like the BT brace can be. If you want, we can do a direct comparison with a stock Prius and my Prius once I get the TRD suspension on. Then we'll see how effective it is. Sports car? No. Sporty? Yes.

But to keepon the point of this topic, does the BT plate work? Absolutely yes.

 

After looking at this thread I see some points...

1) I agree that the BT brace certainly looks beefier than the OEM and probably is.
2) I agree that any change will be positive.
3) I don't agree that everyone will get the same difference because we are different. We have a different commute, different weight, different age, different tires, different tire pressure and different driving experience. What if I don't really detect any change; is there something wrong with me, or just that I'm different from [you]?

Will I get one? Possibly, I'm certainly going to try to keep an open mind about it (hey, for a while I didn't want an EV switch). But not right now. I have other plans for my disposable income (and it's not beer and pizza).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 8 2006, 05:55 PM) [snapback]251840[/snapback]</div>

I just think it's strange that every call for some hard data is met with silence, or just more testimonials. There is no denial Brian's plate is stiffer, but the question is does the Prius really flex and twist the way Brian's plate solves?

Is it that difficult and expensive to run a few double-blind tests with this previously mentioned "G-Tech" device on some auto-cross course and see what the average speeds and data are? Maybe somebody can wire the backup camera underneath too, and watch/record the plate during some twisty driving.

How do the professionals measure a car's handling and responsiveness anyways?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ May 9 2006, 03:24 AM) [snapback]252039[/snapback]</div>

you noticed too, huh?

as i've pointed out, brian's plate doesn't even solve the twisting flex problem (if it exists) better than the OEM plate because it uses the same attachment points. Even if you use a plate as wide as a board of plywood, if they are attached to the same 2-inch apart screw holes, it won't do any good to combat twisting flex.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(electricity_guzzler @ May 9 2006, 09:48 AM) [snapback]252089[/snapback]</div>

Really. Huh. So if I took a piece of aluminum foil and attached it across those same points there would be no change in the twisting/flex of the vehicle? The rigidity of the material between those two attachment points does make a difference. Stiffness is not just at the attachment points either. It is along the entire mating surfaces.

There's a whole lot more going on than the simple force point numbers derived from static engineering equations can show.

 

http://www.priuschat.com/forums/10-vt9445....=asc&&start=180

Page ten, last couple of posts.

You would have found it had you used the search function.

 

No offense guzzler but it seems that every so often someone like yourself comes in here with 1 or 2 posts to their name and questions the validity of our product. We (PC Chat and myselft) have been selling our stiffeining plate for over a year now with hundreds of installs and NOT ONE complaint.

I have posted computer modeling FEA (Finite Element analysis) of our stiffening plate and the effects it makes on the Prius numerous times so use the search feature and do some reading.

My background in automotive structures comes from the racing world for C5-C6 Corvettes where I have designed similar parts for use in these vehicles. While the Prius is certainly no race car it can and does benifit from our stiffening plate and makes a huge difference in this vehicle.

You mentioned that testimonials are the "worst" measure of a product but I strongly disagree with you. The people that install our plate on their car tend to be "in tune" on how their car performs and how it "feels". These are the best people that can relate their experiences with changes in their car. If you feel that hundreds of people now driving their Prius' with our stiffeing plate are wrong and you are right, so be it....






<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(electricity_guzzler @ May 9 2006, 09:48 AM) [snapback]252089[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Whitestar @ May 9 2006, 11:31 AM) [snapback]252135[/snapback]</div>

an aluminum foil is much less stiff than the OEM brace in along its length. it would not act as a brace even for the sideways expansion/contraction forces.

my exact statement was "doesn't even solve the twisting flex problem (if it exists) better than the OEM plate", the operative phrase being "better than the OEM plate". why? because the difference in stiffness is so minor relative to the dimension of the bracing rectangle. your leverage is only about 2 inches. a little bit of stiffness will not buy you much. you'd have to be much much stiffer to realize a benefit. just like you'd have to pick a much much softer material (eg. aluminum foil) before you lose the benefit.

and we are not even sure that twisting forces really are a problem. the OEM brace is not designed to counteract twisting forces, so the toyota engineers must not have thought it was a problem.

 

To guzzler and nushrike -- just try the plate yourselves... or don't. There is no such thing as independent testing of aftermarket suspension upgrades. Frankly, at $160 the product doesn't even cost enough to warrant a scientific analysis of its performance.

Think of the glory -- you could be the very first nay-sayer for the product! You would be famous! (Well, to be honest darelld was "neutral" so I didn't count him as a nay-sayer.)

But to put your pseudo-scientific guesses above the experience of everyone who has actually installed and used the plate, is sophomoric at best. The scientist would first OBSERVE the phenomena and THEN propose a theory to fit the observation -- not the other way around.