Hadley CRU files/emails hacked!

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Radio Prius writes "To be honest, the other thing that turns me off on the AGW idea is the elitist attitude. I feel like the AGW people really do look down their noses at anyone who doesn't accept their (rightly) questionable ideas. There is evidence of that in this thread - pigeon holing people and calling people "deniers" as if it's some derogatory term. That mindset honestly turns me off and makes me question the AGW ideas. Also in these threads I've experienced people saying that basically if you don't believe in AGW then you have been brainwashed by the media, etc. It's a big turn off. I wish the ideas behind AGW were scientific enough that we could consider it a theory and the data could speak for itself."

While your feelings for the messenger may be there, it shouldn't deny the message! If you don't like the tone, don't deny it's truth, work to change the tone!

Icarus

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Exactly. Reminds me of the SNL disposable single use toilet...

I look at the household goods and appliances we bought back in 1990 then compare to replacements today (not that replacements are needed for all, but I have had to replace some.) The old venerable U.S. names have shuttered their U.S. operations and the new ones are almost all Chinese made. The new products are often poorly made with the acquired U.S. name (multi-national acquisition destruction) because it is least expensive to do so.

Choice of quality goods has disappeared in many cases.

That's not to say I'm panning all Chinese made goods or blaming the Chinese. Some of their wares have been an actual quality improvement (saw this in some furniture.) Others are now well made.

Then there is crap like the replacement shower arms in any hardware store: all Chinese made, same brand name, all with the most poorly cut threads I've ever seen.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Except that 11 years is a little longer than a decade, and if it continues next year then it's even longer (I don't mean to be semantic about the length of a decade.) How consistent is this greater than a decade of "variability" with the AGW computer models?

The timespan between the industrial revolution and now isn't very long. If we are looking at the human production of greenhouse gases since then 11 years is a relatively significant portion of time. Shouldn't there be a generally linear relationship with temperature and CO2 and other greenhouse gases if these are a cause?

I wholly agree with you that while it may not conclusively disprove AGW, it certainly makes people claims of out of control climate change seem very unnecessary.

Doesn't feel very concrete. "We have out of control global warming! Except for the last 11 years!"

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

This BS about "onerous" tax burden is just that BS. The aggregate tax burden on Americans has never been lower, MOST ESPECIALLY those Americans who have the most!

It is the same BS we hear about health care. They buy the BS line from the right wing that it will be "too expensive". "It won't lower my premiums, so I'm against it!" conveniently omitting the fact that if we do nothing, all premiums are going to go up, and go up big time!

As for the comment about people who are unemployed need to "get over it and move on. I just hope you or your family never find yourself out in the cold, because your job has been outsourced. You are at risk of losing your home because your health care was tied to your job.

Unions, lets see what benefit unions have brought us,,, minimum wage (which all you "free traders hate!") 40 hour week, over time, pension benefits, family health care,,,,. To blame the flight of jobs off shore on unions is disingenuous at best.

If all you free marketeers could only spend a week in the shoes of others you might realize that the world would not all be rosy if people would just show some initiative!

Icarus

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Message, truth, it sounds like religion. Ugh!

You have to convert people to believe in AGW with science and data, not with insults and elitism.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

You were asked for specific responses, and provided more of your crap.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Dear Polit,
You have been "selected" for an upgrade to your robotic programing in order to properly continue with your talking points. Feel proud Comrade - our goal is in reach!
Yours in service,
al gore

PS --- I'll be gone from this thread for a short time --- gotta take the kids for a quick ski around the lake before the cold sets in -- cheerio

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

I don't see how we can win here. The fact is that most of us aren't qualified to actually argue the points because it isn't debate, it's science.

Science isn't about scoring points in a debate, it's about making observations and trying to fit those observations to a hypothesis. If the facts don't fit then either the hypothesis is wrong, or the observations are in some way flawed. The overall hypothesis is refined by many people until some kind of consensus is reached on what it should be. And the experiments are reviewed and repeated to determine if the observations are reliable, to determine whether they must be included or should be rejected. New experiments are designed to gather new data with the intent of falsifying the hypothesis, but nearly all that new data that comes back supports it. The models make near-term predictions and again, the differences between the predictions and what actually happened are used to feed back into the models. The near-term predictions have been pretty good.

The observations that are used by opponents of the ACC hypothesis tend to be used selectively, not covering the entire available corpus of data that's been collected and reviewed and generally accepted, or observations that have been disregarded as unreliable. That's when they're actually trying to argue from science rather than ad-hominem attacks.

I know this sounds a lot like appeal to authority, but for any layman, we simply are not qualified to evaluate the data. We don't have the knowledge or experience. We have to trust that what the vast majority of actual climate scientists are saying is correct. Just being a 'scientist', or a weatherman, doesn't qualify you, though I would hope that a true scientist would know not to comment outside his or her field.

Climate scientists have been working on this for decades. There really is no argument left at a scientific level as to the fact that it is happening, just the actual effects that it will have.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Does this include the "scientists" that are the subject of this thread?

 

Says the guy who still lives with his parents and spends his day counting their toilet flushes with a hidden pedometer

 

ound:

 

The place has really been filled with trolls of late. Once again quad, you couldn't be more wrong.

 

I've noticed that also -- most visible is something called a shawn I think --- not sure which specie of troll it is, but I'll keep you updated.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

You are so full of crap. You've been calling everyone elitists, while pretending to be sitting on the fence. The data and theory is there but you are too set on insulting everyone to actually take a look through it and understand it. For you this is all about emotion and beliefs rather than studying and weighing.

Why, because you don't have squat for an argument. You have no basis other than "feelings." You don't like what you perceive to be the politics of the science community (becaused of their actual results) therefore you dismiss science. That's just brilliant.

You know, you've just completely trashed the tenuous credibility you might have had. You've got your denial religion, no data is going to change that. That's your right, but don't pretend it is anything other than that.

Science, objectivity, reason? So far all I've seen from you in this discussion is an inability to employ any of them.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

But this isn't true. There is argument at the scientific level upon whether or not humans are contributing to GW. We all agree climate change occurs, we just don't agree if humans are accelerating it.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

I pretty much expected this to you. You are the person who posts with the most elitism.

 

I like how anyone who disagrees with AGW is a troll. I'm sure if you keep turning a blind eye you'll always feel like you're right.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

That is completely nonsensical, but proves my point about your disengenuous approach in this thread. "Most elitism"? What does that even mean? So if someone disagrees with you they are elitist? Define "elitism." Because the opposite of elite would be inferior/subpar.

You haven't bothered to even try discussing this in rational fashion, but have instead used one based solely on your emotions. I see no reason why the average person cannot understand the basics of the science behind this. (However, many like yourself refuse to try.) So how is that elitist? Are you trying to say that you consider yourself inferior in some fashion? If you call someone elite in some way then that would suggest you don't consider myself capable of operating at their skill level with reference to the subject.

I'll repeat: you have no scientific basis for your claims. They are instead based on a your belief system rather than science or reason, or even having examined the basis. What you are attempting to project onto others (religious like zeal) is in fact a reflection of your own view. This has been a common denialist problem. No wonder the hack hype has suckered you.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

I called it decadal but it may be more accruately labeled as natural variability within a non-linear system. As a biology major you should be very well versed in non-linear systems. Natural systems are loaded with complex feedback systems so it is rare to find a fully linear result from an input when there are a large number of variables to deal with. 11yrs is not a significant amount of time where climate change is concerned unless you are talking about catestrophic events like the Toba eruption or that of Yellowstone.

I agree, wild claims of out of control warming are untrue and should not be spoken but what they hell, there are extremists on both sides.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Actually in this case he is correct. The guy is a troll from a Powerstroke diesel site. You must have missed all the BS they posted last night. It was rather entertaining to see them rise up in a bipedal stance and use their knuckles for something other than walking on.

I used to hang out with guys like that on my racing forums. I'm very glad I left that world.