Hadley CRU files/emails hacked!

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Why didn't you say so sooner? I think a majority could agree with radioprius1, me included. The only sticking point in this whole debate is the "man caused" issue, and how "fix" that. Renewable energy rocks!

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

This is the other half of my reasoning for decreasing all my resource usage / oil usage. I don't want to support anything in the middle east in any way. I may be naive and not fully understand the consequences of what may happen if, let's say, the middle east went belly up because they stopped being able to sell so much oil, but I'm open to learn. That whole society seems so backwards and anti-human, it makes me sick to think about living there.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

radioprius1, if you get the chance please answer what would you consider "hard core evidence" for AGW? It's still not clear to me what point you are actually disputing or what would constitute a proof.

Would say breaking the global temperature record this coming year or the next cinch it for you? Afterall, that is what the denialists point at: where are the new records? Nevermind that 1998 was an unexpected spike upward, 2005 matched or exceeded it and this whole past decade has been the hottest on record in the past 200 years. Plus the enthalpy of the oceans continues to rise.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Agreed. There seems little hope that they will join the civilized nations any time soon. My wife worked in Saudi for 6 or 7 years back in the 1980's. One time when her plane landed at one of the International airports, an announcement came over the intercom that " Ladies and gentlemen, we have touched down and you all may set your watches back 600 years." A reference, of course, to the Islamic calendar but also a little tongue-in-cheek jibe at the reality of that society.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

You responded to my post, but didn't answer the question I closed with.

Here is another question.
If AGW is real, what will you tell your grand kids about what you did to stop it?

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

If we share the same goal, as you claim, why do you exhaust so much effort working against that goal?

Even if AGW is wholly orchestrated by a cabal of Al Gore and George Soros, the legislation that is proposed will result in changes that you have stated a desire for.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

If GW is real, and it is caused by natural cycles as opposed to man-caused as I suspect is the case, then there is little I or anybody else can do. In the meantime, just as radioprius1 is doing, I am doing what I can to lessen my use of fossil fuel just as fast as I can. So, to answer your question, what I am doing is going to have be good enough of an answer. For me anyway.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Yup, the three tenants of the Anti-Climate Change religion, worshiping at the alter of Exxon/Mobile.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

I don't know if this was aimed at me, but let me take a stab at it. If the cabal is successful, the punishment in the form of taxes on people and companies that use energy will be soooooo onerous that I suspect the economy will stagnate into perpetuity. And of course, the taxes that are collected will be redistributed by those who "know" whats best for you and how best to "fix" things rather than letting the free market innovate us out of the problem. Somehow, those who are always in the "know", don't quite seem to get it right. And of course, the massive bureaucracy created to administer the "fixes" will be endowed with considerable power -- a very scary scenario.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Oh, a free marketeer!
I worship what the free market has brought us. Cheap shit that has no longevity,at the expense of the people who make it as well as the environment that supports it. Skyrocketing social costs including medical care costs, that are only mirrored by CEOs salaries and bonus'. Free markets that are free only in the sense that they favour large multinational corporations "free of regulation" but not really free.

If your biggest worry is the potential stagnation of the economy, just wait to see what the cost of doing nothing is. We live on a finite planet and yet Economics is the only "science" that is based on the concept that unlimited growth is not only possible, but good. How does that work?

Finally, to hear the BS line about being "taxed" to "redistribute" wealth is the same selfish self delusion. I won't believe in the evidence before my own eyes, because I am too selfish (cheap) to be willing to pay for my choices. You think that $10 cell phone really only cost $10? What would it cost if we had to pay a living wage to put it together, pay the clean up cost of the chip fab facility, pay for the air pollution from the plastic factory spewing forth in China, pay the cost of the environment cost of the battery, and finally the cost of throwing it away? Get a grip!

Icarus

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Increasing temperatures would not help me to accept AGW versus NGW (normal global warming.) I don't deny that regular climate changes occur. I just don't know if I believe that humans are causing the global temperature to rise quicker than it would without us here. It's a really difficult thing to prove though, because we only have one world with humans on it.

The proof I need is a clear, concise, coherent theory explaining how it all works. We don't debate the validity of the theory of gravity (we do debate some very tiny intricacies of it, but not the validity of the theory as a whole) - we send people to the moon using the equations and keep our GPS satellites in sync, etc. Would you trust AGW ideas right now if your life absolutely and immediately depended upon them? I wouldn't.

To be honest, the other thing that turns me off on the AGW idea is the elitist attitude. I feel like the AGW people really do look down their noses at anyone who doesn't accept their (rightly) questionable ideas. There is evidence of that in this thread - pigeon holing people and calling people "deniers" as if it's some derogatory term. That mindset honestly turns me off and makes me question the AGW ideas. Also in these threads I've experienced people saying that basically if you don't believe in AGW then you have been brainwashed by the media, etc. It's a big turn off. I wish the ideas behind AGW were scientific enough that we could consider it a theory and the data could speak for itself.

Again like I said in my other post, I'm totally for conserving resources, decreasing my consumption of everything (I wish I would consume less food!), and I love renewable and free (solar, wind, etc) energy.

BTW - unrelated - I was watching the GREEN channel the other day, and a guy was living off the grid completely and needed a water well dug. He hired a water douser! Those are the people who hold little sticks or pieces of metal and claim to be able to sense water. What a turn off! I liked the whole idea of living without being tied into a grid, but then the guy goes an employs voodoo/hocus pocus superstitious stuff. It was almost enough to make me turn off the TV. I think for all the climate change stuff, be it AGW or NGW, we need to approach everything as scientifically and respectfully as possible. Present the facts and let the viewer decide, but don't insult the viewer who hasn't made up their mind yet.

This is nonsense. This it the same kinds of questions I get from religious people when they want to debate about me being an atheist. "If god isn't real then how do you explain love?" Just pure nonsense.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

I you feel al gore knows whats best for you, go for it. You have my sympathy's.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

At least you are still free not to buy the cheap shit!

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Shawn I have to ask what are the sources of your climate data.. NWS and NOAA both say that temperatures have remained stable or cooled since 1998. That sir is fact

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

That only true to a point.

Because cheap junk has flooded the market in almost every way, it is ALMOST impossible to buy quality products any more, much less get something repaired.

You might think it a bargain to by a $10 cell phone, and have buy another (with all it's environmental costs!) in a year or two because the battery can't be replaced but I don't consider it so.

So you are right, I am free to buy nothing, but I am not free to NOT buy cheap shit generally.

Why do you suppose you can't by a US made TV, or toaster, or carpet or sofa, or, or, or,,,,? Do those folks that have have lost their lively hood due to off shoring of labour have "free choice/free trade?"

Just because things are "cheap" doesn't mean they are "inexpensive".

Icarus

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

No, they do not. That is bunk and exactly the sort of lie I expect from you.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

It was aimed at you.

Can you describe how the taxes would be "soooooo onerous"? In fact, why don't you start by describing the taxes that would be imposed by the legislation. Furthermore, please also explain how numerous (non-partisan) analyses of the proposed legislation have reached a different conclusion than yours.

The legislation provides for free market innovation, as it does not specify the measures that entities must undertake.

Please elaborate on the "very scary" powers.

FYI- I've read the legislation and work in the environmental compliance field. BS, fear-mongering, and hand-waving are not valid arguments.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Totally agree with that statement.

I don't own a cell phone, who needs one? I only buy stuff as necessary (cheap or expensive).

I do feel for those that have lost their jobs but they have a choice to wallow in their self-pity or move on. Many of those brought it on themselves by supporting overbearing Unions that made them less competitive in the market place [read too much greed].

This whole discussion/argument is ridiculous as many if not all of us here posting are driving something that if true will help reduce the gases that cause GW and if nothing else will help to reduce dependency on mid-east oil. Everyone needs to come to their own conclusion as to whether they want to participate or not. Group hug everyone.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

The reduction in accelerated warming from the period of about 1998-2009 is generally understood as part of normal decadal variability. This does not mean there the upward trend will not continue. Periods of leveling off or even cooling during an overall upward trend are expected and can be seen when comparing long term trends. To claim that global warming is a hoax because of this data is not accurate but it does help to disprove some people's rational that climate has accelerating in an out of control manner over the last decade.

What explains this particular decadal variance this is less understood, by me anyway, but knowing natural systems tend to have lag times between periods of input before and output can be measured I don't see this as particularly alarming nor does it cause me to jump to conclusions and completely relax.

 

Re: So called "scientists" fake data to promote GW religion - for years!

Look, if you think that cap-and-trade and the Kyoto Protocol, et al are not going to result in massive tax increases, than I suggest you consult the tooth fairy for answers to your questions. And if you don't think that is scary, see what happens when the IRS comes to collect them -- it won't be with a group of choir boys. But the scariest thought of all is al gore with his finger on the button of robots that blindly accept man-caused GW. Peace and Love