GM's Plug-In Push

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Nov 23 2007, 06:22 PM) [snapback]543432[/snapback]</div>

There are plenty w/o it. Some that come to mind:
- all the previous gen Miatas
- Chrysler PT Cruiser Convertible (it's a sport bar for rigidity, not rollovers)
- Ford Mustang
- Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder
- Chrysler Sebring convertible (not surprising, previous gen was shared platforms w/the Eclipse)

There are probably many others.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 23 2007, 11:37 AM) [snapback]543309[/snapback]</div>

So please list the 8 and volumes sold in 07, then compare them vs the 2 Toyota sells.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Nov 23 2007, 06:22 PM) [snapback]543432[/snapback]</div>

Yes, it's very possible. When I was a kid, "Made in Japan" was synonymous with "Will fall apart soon." Everything that came out of Japan was trash. Then the Japanese government decided that the way to a healthy national economy was to built a national reputation for quality. The leaders of government called in the leaders of industry and told them that it was not merely a matter for individual businesses to decide each for itself: The well-being of the nation depended on making the world see that they could depend on the quality of anything coming out of Japan.

Quality control is a science: a collection of methods and techniques that a business leader can decide to adopt, at an easily-calculated cost. So many dollars per unit to achieve a failure rate of so many per thousand.

Americans are just as competent as the Japanese. We could have the same quality as the Japanese if we decided to spend the money on quality control. But our business model penalizes executives for costs, and gives them no incentive for quality, and pays them obscene salaries even when the business goes down the tank. So they cut costs and allow quality to suffer. It's a matter of pure business decisions. Decisions that put the CEO above the customer.

 

the reason Toyota abandoned the RAV 4 EV is still the same, it did not and still does not fit MAINSTREAM consumer needs.

it needs a specialized charger, has "limited range" and costs to much. so you see, that was a very very easy question to answer.

now why they chose to abandon a now quickly expanding niche market is a good question and probably points to their underestimating the price of gas, the demand of the Prius and how fast the "green" movement would take hold...lets face it, when Toyota made this decision, it was mostly pollution that was a concern, not GW. the Prius did do a good job addressing that so i can see why they did it and on a CSTS (customer service transactional survey) score i would give them an 8. maintaining an EV for the niche crowd would have been an undeniable 10...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Nov 24 2007, 02:47 AM) [snapback]543521[/snapback]</div>

I'm too lazy to hunt down volumes(not to mention I'm not your research assistant), but here's a link to the list:

http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/vsearch...ehicletypeid=16

BTW, even Ford, VW, and Mazda school Toyota. Pathetic showing on Toyota's part.

 

I do hope more people drive PZEV cars. For the non hybrid PZEV, how much more do they cost and MPG impact of the clean technology?

I remember non-hybrid PZEV costing more and getting less MPG. HSD hybrids does not compromise on MPG nor emission and still can pay for itself. This package proves to be more attractive.... No brainner...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Nov 24 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]543618[/snapback]</div>

I agree.. Toyota's push for quantity has hurt quality.

Meanwhile, look at the new Malibu. You may have to wait for them since they're not cranking them out, quality is their first priority.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Nov 24 2007, 02:16 PM) [snapback]543625[/snapback]</div>

On most cars I've looked at, california emissions (PZEV) is a no cost option. So I guess the question is, why can't Toyota do it with a regular drivetrain, why do they need the added burden of HSD to clean up their engines?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 24 2007, 02:36 PM) [snapback]543633[/snapback]</div>

Because non-hybrid PZEV's MPG and peak hp is lower compare to the regular version.

HSD improves all three (power/emission/fuel economy) with other benefits such as, EV quietness, smooth and responsive(lack of shifting gears), ease of highway passing and hill climbing, fun to drive, etc...

Ford Focus PZEV was avilable back in the day 04 Prius came out. People clearly want the whole package that HSD offers over another "compromising package". Non-hybrid PZEV is not free and there are extra cost and changes. Below is a quote from Ford:

"Ford engineers used a modified 2.3-liter inline four cylinder engine in Focus to achieve the PZEV emissions certification. Notable changes include a reprogrammed engine-management computer, new 12-hole fuel injectors, a coil-on-plug ignition system and a new secondary air system. A new dual-wall inlet pipe speeds warm-up of the improved catalytic converter, and a catalytic monitoring sensor has been installed."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Nov 24 2007, 04:44 PM) [snapback]543680[/snapback]</div>

I read about that on edmunds... going PZEV increased the MPG and power. Win/Win for everyone. Now, I'm not sure how much new injectors cost, as opposed to old injectors, or how much it costs to reprogram an ECM, and sure, a monitoring sensor might cost money... but it's all still less than HSD.

Thanks tho!

 

I copied this from the same site as your list, which I noticed didn't include the Toyota Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid because they OUTCLASS ANYTHING ON THIS LIST!!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 24 2007, 06:55 PM) [snapback]543707[/snapback]</div>

Link? PZEV may reduce air polution but the carbon footprint and fuel consumption can only be addressed by a hybrid (AT-PZEV).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 24 2007, 11:36 AM) [snapback]543633[/snapback]</div>

You make both statements as if they are fact. What do you have back either of these claims up? It just sounds like your usual blind praise of GM and Toyota bashing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 24 2007, 03:55 PM) [snapback]543707[/snapback]</div>

Not necessarily, for instance, see http://www.nissanusa.com/altima/specifications.html. For non-CARB vehicles 2.5L vehicles, they get 175 hp and 180 lb-ft of torque. If you click on the footnote 3, you see "3 CAL emissions (PZEV) equipment causes normal reductions in horsepower (from 175 hp to 170 hp) and torque (from 180 lb-ft to 175 lb-ft). PZEV vehicles are available in California and some northeastern states."

Although I don't have the official figures handy, http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/emissions/t...tates-2632.html mentions that the CARB version of the 05 HCH gets 1 (EPA) city MPG less than the non-CARB version.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Nov 24 2007, 08:20 PM) [snapback]543740[/snapback]</div>

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drive...rticleId=101294

Quotes:

* You'd think that with all exhaust scrubbing going on, there'd be little chance of performance. Yet the PZEV engine makes a healthy 144 horsepower at 5,750 rpm and 149 pound-feet of torque at a usable 4,200 rpm. Those numbers are impressive compared to the standard Zetec engine (130 hp and 135 lb-ft of torque),

* The cleaner 23E engine is standard in California, Maine, Massachusetts, New York and Vermont. In other states, it adds only $115 to the price of a Focus

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Nov 25 2007, 05:49 AM) [snapback]543898[/snapback]</div>

I can only go by my craptacular Prius and it's breakdowns and recalls

And didn't Consumer Reports, and let's be honest their methodology is questionable at best, just come out and do a big feature on the declining quality of Toyota? Yeah, I think they did. Now, not to say that they've sunk to all time lows, but CR is just confirming what legions of people who had engine sludge issues already knew... Toyota ain't all that anymore. Let's see how many Toyotas drop off the recommend list next year...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 24 2007, 11:36 AM) [snapback]543633[/snapback]</div>

Teh list you so freely quote with all the GM models wioth PZEV is very misleading.

First off GM offers many more models than Toyota o the market, so number of models is meaningless. Rather the sales volume of PZEV models sold.

Toyota also offers the normal Camry as PZEV (no need for the HSD), so your statement is incorrect. The Camry also just happens to be the top sellign Toyota model. Teh new COrolla will most definitly also be a PZEV class vehicle.

Then keep in mind that not all models sold are PZEV, but rather only the the ones sold in CARB states.

Also have you actually compared the emissions from each model you so freely qoute to the Toyota equivalent or was a misleading list just more convinient for your purposes?

Also you do realize PZEV is only SULEV with evap euipment and warranty.

The devil is in the details and understanding them. So unless you can list the actual sales numbers and emissions of the various models your little charade and opinion is completely meaningless and misleading.

GM is trying to play catch up, but instead of keeping their head down and nose to the grindstone and turn out product, they choose to spread FUD. Ford is makign a remarkable comeback by producing good products in the various consumer segments, the FUsion is a very good example. It doesn't talk abotu it's relaibility, etc it just went and did it. Go see the stats on it vs Camry/Accord. The Malibu is talked about, but has yet to deliver.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 25 2007, 12:23 PM) [snapback]543958[/snapback]</div>

It was a spin. 2004 2.3L ZTS engine was the newer generation with variable valve timing plus other improvements while the base Zetec engine was the outdated 2.0L. Duh, 2.3L better make more power and torque.

If you want to compare apple to apple, look at the link that cwerdna provided. You can also check other PZEV cars and see the same hp/torque and MPG dipping compare to the regular model. I don't know about you but I don't like to give up something to get another. HSD offers the whole power/emission/fuel consumption package with other benefits at a price that is affordable and can earn back for it too. It was and still a revolutionary / disruptive technology.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Nov 25 2007, 01:35 PM) [snapback]543975[/snapback]</div>

Good point. Also PZEV does not equal to AT-PZEV. AT-PZEV produces less carbon footprint and reduces fuel consumption by almost half. I can not find the link (EPA or CARB?) to the detail breakdown of the emission (CO2/NOx/PM/etc..) to compare Prius with a car from "one of the PZEV list". I am sure Prius has lower emission than the non-hybrid PZEV.

Prius' emission is by far lower than the minimum requrement to meet AT-PZEV. Non-hybrid PZEV cars might just be meeting SULEV and added the 10yr/150k miles warranty to get PZEV cert.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Nov 25 2007, 01:38 PM) [snapback]543976[/snapback]</div>

No, the correct answer is: "Wow, Jonnycat26, you found the same article I posted from, read deeper, and posted a counter argument."

Yes, it's a larger and more sophisticated engine which provides more power AND better MPG, so you're correct. But my point about price still stands, and kinda shoots down your argument there, right?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Nov 25 2007, 12:35 PM) [snapback]543975[/snapback]</div>

Lots of talk and little action is a sad reality. It isn't a cleaner choice unless it delivers a better emission rating. It isn't a more efficient choice if it isn't a mainstream vehicle.

They know quite well that the target audience should be midsize car buyers, where very large volumes can be produced & sold at a modest profit. Instead, they are focusing on the extremes. How is a small, expensive plug-in or a monster-size, powerful hybrid suppose to help joe-consumer?