GM's New Lure

Cheers, Michael

 

Of course. They'll pull a quick Chapter 11, screw their pensioners and current workers, have a great excuse to let a lot of workers go, then concentrate on the Chinese market.

http://electriccommentary.blogspot.com/200...innovation.html

http://www.gm.com/company/corp_info/global...cific/chin.html

http://www.gmchina.com/english/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3782265.stm

 

Wow. You perfectly described my expensive 2000 GMC Sierra SLT 4x4 with Vortec 5.3 V8.

 

... and getting smaller every year!.....

Oh but contrar!....its not all about Toyota.. its about anything besides American!..... They are poor workmanship!.... yes they are usually OK till around 80K or so... then start collecting parts, you'll need them!

I have stepped out of the herd... thats why I finally got smart and found Toyota!....
I have owned and driven american for the last 32 years.......
That was an excellent analogy about the herd.... just following the leader because thats what you do without reason or purpose.... just because everybody else is doing it so do you?... without that "herd" mentality.. GM, and others would have been out a long time ago..... why do you think their commercials focus on an image of how everyone else is on the boat, you better get on too?

If everyone else was truly on thier boat, they wouldn't need expensive commercials... word of mouth would be good enough?... Does that sound like any car you know?.... I'll give you a hint... it starts with "P".

maybe you should listen to your own inner voice and consider your own advice?

Sometimes the words you hear from inside that are focused towards others are really mean't for you!

 

Yep..they have 20 Billion stuck away... yet they will still claim bankruptcy because its a good career decision and do as you say.... Some thanks, after the american people bailed thier incompetent selves out a few years back?

They are no better than enron...... claiming how good everything is when all the while, they are planning the exit door escape to leave the consumers and thier workers holding the bag.

I could be wrong.... but we'll see.

 

Perish the thought.

That money is for golden parachutes.

 

The specs are on their site, and Edmunds.com has some active forums. I wouldn't even consider the HHR if it wasn't for driving it for two days while on vacation. The people driving it are getting around 26 - 28 MPG, which isn't bad for a small econo car. While the picture of it makes it look bigger, its comparable to a PT Cruiser, Rav4 or Scion XB. I haven't been in a XB, but the HHR is a better car than the PT Cruiser or Rav4 in terms of driving comfort. The driver's seat is very comfortable, with manual 6-way adjustments. I had no trouble driving it 3 straight hours. The 2.2L engine with the auto trans does a good job ... you won't win any races with it, but I found it didn't slow on hills. The ride is as nice as the Prius I've test driven, but the Prius is a bit quieter.

Of the Toyota's I tried, only the Matrix and the Prius had seats anywhere near comfortable. The Matrix is a noisy car, and so the Prius wins out in terms of comfort.

I did get two quotes for the fully loaded, 2.4L HHR 2LT, for $17,900. That's not the model I did the cost analysis on ... the 2.4L Ecotech engine requires premium fuel, where the 2.2L engine does not. The price advantage starts to disappear with $3.25 fuel, and I think I can expect gas prices to rise to that level over the next 5 years.

The HHR has a higher level of fit and quality than some other GM products. I have the advantage of frequently driving rental cars, and the HHR actually rides better (to me) than a Pontiac Grand Am. Drivers in forums on the Internet have reported some issues with fuses, but it doesn't look like any more problems than you see here for the Prius.

I'm not invested in cars like many people are, and I don't have strong brand loyalties. While I may be passionate about religion and politics, I tend to like all sorts of different cars, from different makers. I suspect I would be as happy in an HHR as I would in a Prius. I'll let those who like to argue about such things decide which is a "better car" and why.

The good news is that the original dealer who took my deposit called, as we were on the way to Santa Barbara to look at another Prius and check out the HHRs at the dealers up there. He said my car was going to be in by the 25th. You might say I'm just a bit skeptical, so I asked him for the VIN number, and spent about 25 minutes making sure it didn't have leather, chrome wheels, upcharges, extras, mice in the trunk or anything else. For the first time, he gave me the "temporary VIN" ... not sure what that's about, but a number at least gives me some assurance that there is a car coming. He assured me its the exact car, with the exact options, in the exact color and interior, for the exact price that we agreed to when the options for the 2006 models were first announced (September? October?).

So if he does get that car, and they don't sell it out from under me, I'll buy it. I'll own a Prius rather than a HHR. But if not, then my search will continue for the car I'll drive another 5 - 6 years.

 

I think the Prius beats the HHR in most respects ... but then the top-level HHR is selling for about half the price of the Package 8. The Prius back seat, especially, has more room than the HHR, but then the Prius back seat beats out the more expensive Camry in my view. The HHR beats out the Prius in terms of interior cargo room. The Prius beats out the HHR in terms of "shoulder room" for the driver ... in the HHR, you are really sitting just a few inches from the door. They really aren't "comparable" in any sense except that the HHR ended up on my short list for a commuter car.

GM's quality isn't up to the level of Toyota's, in my view. The one problem you have to recognize about some reliability and satisfaction awards is that they are really unscientific. When the sample size gets large enough, the errors tend to get smaller, but voluntary surveys of people are tainted by the fact that "true believers" and people who are pissed off about something will sit down and spend an hour filling out a survey. The vast majority of people who are perfectly pleased with their cars aren't going to go to the trouble. I would suspect you would get higher participation rates with any of the character car owners (PT Cruiser, VW New Bug, Jeep CJ, Prius, HHR, etc.) That will skew the results of the overall survey, because the Pontiac Grand Am owner might not be as passionate about his car.

 

And if you never bought another Toyota, I wouldn't blame you. It just sounds like he had one bad experience with a GM...and that's it. We went to a restaurant and they served my son spoiled milk, they made up for it by not charging for his kid's meal,($2.99). Regardless, we never went their again. I'm sure it was a one time thing, but in this country, there is so much competition, you don't have to go back to a product you were not satisfied with.

 

I'm not sure how I apply to the above quote? :blink: Do you mean I read what I wrote? Sorry, been away, getting 46mpg driving my kids to Mall of America!

 

I didn't calculate depreciation at all. I'm sure the Prius will have a higher resale value, unless they start having problems AFTER 100,000 miles with the batteries. Then the resale on the Prius will plummet. There is also a risk with the Prius that the resale value will remain high as long as Hybrids are considered new technology, but then fall quickly if something that tickles the fancy of the technophiles more (like a hydrogen based system). But there are way too many variables working here. I just used an estimate of the monthly outlay over the period of the loan, and then the cost for an additional 2 to 4 years.

I calculated financing 21,000 at 4.99% for my Prius for 48 months, with a monthly payment of $484, or $5808 a year. That's the best interest rate I have been quoted. I took my week day commute at 75 miles round trip, or about 1 1/2 gallons of gas per day, times 260 week days a year, times $3 per gallon, for a total gas cost of $1,170 a year. My yearly total for the Prius is just under $7,000 during the term of the loan. Cost over 4 years is about $28,000.

The HHR, with the same down payment, would see me financing $14,000 at 2.9% for a monthly total of $309 for 48 months, or $3708 a year. (The rate is an incentive from GM). Owner mileage is a little more than half what the Prius gets, but for the sake of a quick calculation, let's say it will use double the gas and average 25 MPG instead of 50 for the Prius. So its $2,340 for gas. Yearly cost is just over $6,000. Cost over 4 years is about $24,000.

If I can get a Prius, I will. I tend to drive cars for 6 - 8 years, so after 8 years, the $1,170 savings in gas each year gives an edge to the Prius. If I don't get a Prius, and decide on a HHR, I would finance it at 1.9% for 36 months instead, and pay it off faster. The cost per month in years 1 - 3 would be the same as the Prius, but my savings would be much greater in the 4th year. Then the higher gas mileage of the Prius eats away at those savings in years 5 - 8.

 

It sounds like you have pretty much done your homework and considered all the angles, advantages, and disadvantages. That being said..... its hard to compare the two... like I mentioned before there is none, the cost of the HHR is 40+% less, but so are the items, and overall quality, mpg etc etc....
You will be getting a nice rig for what your paying.. but you are truly gettting what you pay for!...

The only part about this that concerns me really is in your post you mentioned

, if you are getting the HHR because you want something and don't want to wait, I encourage you to wait.... these prius's seem to be coming out of the woodwork.... the pop up surprisingly all over the place.... I've seen about 5 in the last 4 days, and I'm not even looking!

The resale on the HHR is such that you will take a hit if you have buyers remorse.

But on the other hand.. its a pretty cool rig for the money.. unique look etc... I know several people who love thier PT cruisers!.... I think getting "anything" that is different than the norm is funner than doing what everybody else does anyway.

As you know, you shouldn't expect to get reliable performance past the 100K point without problems.... that should be a huge factor in "how much car you are getting for you money".

Value is defined by "quality of service X time" ... For instance... If a car cost 10K and gives you the same comparable quality of service as a car that cost 20K, you are not getting a bargain in value if the 20K car last 3 or 4 times longer!

One last thought:
I was at a prius meeting with Bill Merchant and others this after noon and we were discussing as a couple came that had just bought a prius, then when all things were considered they also bought "her" a "regular" Honda civic.

Their decision for the civic "would be the wifes car" was that for less money it got pretty good mileage compared to the prius, and it is a quality rig... granted, just not as high tech. So why not right? Why do they need "two" prius's anyway was thier reasoning.

But now when they both go out to go somewhere, the prius is what they always get in!... its the funnest to drive!
Fun is defined not only as comfort and performance, but as "basic satisfaction of the driving experience."

It looks like their Honda may outlast the prius.. because it may never get driven! :lol:

I feel good knowing you are weighing all the odds well, so you will do whats best for you!

 

fshagan,
Are you taking the tax credit into account for the Prius ?

What credits are you applying for the HHR ? Am I right in thinking this is the bare-bones, manual configuration ?

 

I wasn't taking the tax credit into account ... that is something I overlooked. Which is ironic since I delayed getting a Prius until after the first so I COULD take advantage of it! The tax credit is delayed gratification, as it would come only after 2006 taxes are completed (unless I reduced my deductions, something I hesitate to do and end up paying penalties if I trigger the AMT). But that would put the two on an equal footing for the first three years.

The only thing I applied to the HHR was the discounted financing being offered through GMAC, 1.9% for 36 months or 2.9% for 48 months. The 1LT model, with the 2.2L Ecotech engine, fully loaded, is under 18,000.

 

The only other two money considerations that occur to me would be more state tax on the more expensive car, and any state perks.

Beyond that, it seems an exercise in actually pricing out the HHR as you would buy it.

The enviro advantages of the Prius are well documented

 

I've been frustrated by three different Toyota dealers in the last two weeks. The first one sold my car I had a deposit on since August, the second one called me down and we started to fill out the paperwork but the car had been sold that morning, and the third one simply lied and had $4,000 in extras piled on the car. The first one was, I think, an honest misunderstanding ... I was out of town when the car arrived, and they called my home number instead of my cell, and I never got their message. When I didn't respond, they assumed I flaked out on them and they sold it to the next guy on the list.

The second was, I think, an honest mistake on the part of the dealer; they didn't realize the car was sold.

The third really upset me; Puente Hills Toyota called me, told me they had just gotten three in, and they didn't mark up the MSRP. I asked twice, and nope, they never mark that up! I drove 100 miles, in Friday afternoon traffic across LA, and they had the aftermarket leather ($1,995) and the chrome wheels ($1,995) installed on the car, and wouldnt' remove the tires (I was willing to talk about the leather, but certainly not at $2k.)

"You see, we don't mark up the MSRP, but you do have to pay for the things that are added to the car ... that's only fair! And you really wouldn't just walk out if you just spent three hours to get here would you? Let's talk ... "

So at least part of my frustration when I started calculating the costs on the HHR were because of the shoddy treatment I've been getting.

But, my original point in this thread is that the rumors of GMs death are greatly exaggerated. And they won't just disappear; at the worst, a foreign car maker like VW will purchase them (Daimler-Benz already has Chrysler). It is true that the workers' will lose out ... I'm sure their pension plan, if "over-funded", will be raided, and I'm sure the executives will still get their bonuses while the workers are getting taken advantage of. But modern corporate management would have done that anyway, even without a bankruptcy.

 

I don't think your deductions will have any bearing on whether you get dinged with AMT.
That is measured rather based on how much you actually make......
Your deductions will alter how much you get back or pay at the end of the year, but is of not of any bearing on what you actually are "liable" to pay in.

I don't want to get into a tax thing here "we are all tired of that one", but changing your deductions won't have any effect on your AMT status the way I understand it.
Even the amount you pay in doesn't matter... its all about what your "liable" to pay in.... what your accountable for and whether you paid that in is what determines whether you will get a credit.

 

Yeah, I meant my payroll deductions taken from my check every two weeks ... some are advising increasing your deductions on a W2 form so your employer takes less tax out. Unless you do that, the tax credit doesn't come into play until 2007, when you claim it for your 2006 taxes. Depending on when you file, and when you get your refund or make your payment, the date you realize the tax credit could be in the second quarter of the year.

Here's a quote on underwithholding:

Source is http://www.bankrate.com/brm/green/taxes/basics1-3a.asp

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean?... the only deductions I can think of that may save you on AMT is "tax deferred 401K or 403B"... even those may not help.. I'm not sure about that... because I think AMT if factored off your gross before any deductions.

I didn't know "when" you filed should make a difference either?

The deductions on a W2 carry not bearing on anything as far as your "liablity" to uncle sam...

It sounds like you have alot of questions and although I could be wrong, I sure don't want to confuse you more.. I recommend you speak to a friend or someone who knows your situation and can explain it better one on one... less room for error that way....

 

Premiums are no longer being paid for Prius. Do you think this will effect resale value? The resale is now comparable to any toyota and many wholesale folks I am in contact with are now thinking resale will be less because the potential buyer pool is fairly shallow and most of that pool prefers to buy new.