GM wants a 230MPG rating from the EPA

you realize that ICE does not propel the vehicle? All the Volt will have is 80hp electric engine when it is running out of electric juice. And all ICE is keep battery at 30%, it does not charge it more like Prius.

It wont automagically get 50 extra hp .

So what you will have is 1.4l 80hp engine powering 80hp generator that propels the wheels. It wont be fast and it wont get good mpg.

 

Kevin I think that truly is the heart of the discussion and the point of debate.

The volt seems like a pretty cool car "until" it runs out of electricity in the battery.
I"m sure they have performed simulations too... and thats why its not released!
Unless it can at least keep up it has little chance unless the price is right... the price being right is the only reason Ford is in the Game.

I'm gonna really try to quit saying the same thing over and over because I still keep thinking it should be clear.. but you cannot get more horsepower performance than your putting in.
If you put their 1.4 Liter engine in the GenII prius, it would not perform as well as the existing. The would be no comparison between the Gen III prius with its 1.8Liter engine... and thats not even factoring in losses since that ICE is not hooked up to the drive train.. it merely charges the battery.
If they are going to charge "more" than the Prius cost... it better perform better too!... and thats when the battery is drained too!

 

The output of the generator is 74hp. Once the batteries are low (not empty) the generator turns on and starts charging the batteries minus the current demand of the traction motor.

Most of the time that is going to be take less then 74hp to run the car and it will probably average around 40hp but if needed the batteries will still provide a around 150hp of power to the motor EVEN IF THEY ARE LOW.

The Volt uses about half the battery capacity just as the Prius and while the states of charge set points are not the same they are close.

Yes, I am sure that if you come up to a huge mountain just as your SOC is at the bottom you might run into a problem and be limited to 74hp but on the way down, wow, lots of juice that would have gone to waste is now yours.

 

I think your rational is fine if your in stop and go traffic where the generator will finally catch the battery up as there will be periods you are using no, or less than 74hp.

My main complaint is a long trip cruising at freeway speeds "which I call 65 - 80mph".. if I can't have that continuously for as many hours in a row that I want... I'm going to feel hampered and like I'm in a science project rather than a luxury car I'm willing to pay 40K for..... and good luck getting me to pay 40K... it better be a Damn site better than the prius for that!... not less than or marginally acceptable.

Why put up with a science project when we have a luxury car "in the Prius" that will take us as fast as we want to go as long as we want to go?
Being green is fine, but then there are times I want to get from point A to B without dilly dallying so I can start my vacation as my time is limited.... or keep up with traffic and not be a pest and menace on the road because I keep bottle necking traffic.

The price will have to be very sweet if its limited in any way when comparing with the speed, stamina, and amenities of the Prius.

That means 18K off the price just to match the basic prius and unless it performs better than the Ford Fusion, that means at least 25K off the price "or there abouts". That would still be a 15,000.00 car... Sounds more reasonable for something that can't keep up consistently the road but is economical.

And unless the term "economical" means less money out of my pocket at the end of the month after I pay all my gas and utility bills, then that means 30K off the price because I can get a brand new Kia for 8500.00 with 100K mile 10 year warranty.

Competition is just too stiff for Chevy to release a half baked pie and think its going to sell to more than the most avid techy's.

There will be 4 crowds of people who buy..
1. the ones that buy because money is no object and they must have the latest new car thats different and will attract attention.
2. Those that are green enough they will sacrifice to make a statement. "true with prius also"
3. Those who are enamored with the news hype and bite hook line and sinker and later have buyers remorse later because of the high car payments and hassle of plugin without the functionality of a normal car they are used to.
4. Those that understand the issues but know they will in large only commute short distances and want to try and exclusively use plugin power and acknowledge the gas engine as emergency backup to get them home should they run the battery dry.

But for those who think they will have their cake and eat it too, I fear will be dissappointed with this car.

If they make the gas engine even yet more powerful and still efficient enough to be used without taking a serious mileage hit, they may have a chance "one as efficient as the Atkinson?.. good luck!"

But then you have the issue that may botch the whole scheme.... weight.
Although the car is snazzy looking.. we all know there is a mileage hit for large tires "just physics" and the weight issue has not been dealt with for a car thats trying to break records for mileage and efficiency.

If plugin electricity was free, it may be a different story.. but for the hassle to plugin, the savings in shorepower electricity will be eaten up by the in-efficient systems elsewhere in the car.

It would be wonderful if the numbers they claim could even be achieved by "half" but I think the whole thing is a joke unless they take the market by storm with new a revolutionary product... sorry, the Volt is just not it at this point!

I'm sorry Chevy is hurting.. its part of our heritage and identity... But I'm also sorry they are yet further blemishing our reputation across the world with hot air and wind.....

For lack of a more polite way to put it...

Its time for Chevy to put up or shut up!

Call or fold, because we are calling their bluff!

 

The second gen Prius uses around 22hp for 65mph, 30hp for 75mph and 35hp for 80mph. Even if we bump them by 20% for the Volt they still give room for charging battery.

Most probably the Volt will be ever so slightly more efficient then the third gen Prius on the highway. (I can't wait for the responses to this one!).

 

I have done so much standing up for the Volt (trying to use only solid information) because I think its a great concept. The pure serial hybrid is an excellent way to build a car and its time that someone does it. That does not mean I don't love the Prius, I happen to think the Prius is currently the flat out best hybrid on the road. The application of the PSD and the design of the whole car to simplify and reduce the number of components required to do the job VS the others makes it stand out.

So...... what could go wrong or not be achivable with the Volt????
For me it all boils down to miles per kWh. GM is using a 16kWh pack with 8.8kWh usable. The stated all electric range (AER)...40 miles. Thats nearly 5 miles per kWh!

The current Tesla is 3.57 mi/kW·h (wikipedia)
The nissan Leaf is about 4 mi/kWh (wikipedia 100 miles 24kWh pack)

So Gm has to do nearly 20% better then the other electric cars. Thats hard, the Volt is heavier. Have they already done it? The press releases do not say. They imply that they have due to the testing and the 230 mpg they have announced but again, that is really a tough goal.

If they fail then the AER is wrong and the mpg will be worse in every way electric and gas generator powered.

 

Actually, when I was getting a drink from the garden hose .... " pfffft .... 230 miles per gallon!$&? ... "

 

Not sure what your using to calculate that..... have you considered weight?

If they can even match the mpg of the prius while having more weight and only a 1.4CC gas engine that has to first make electricity to then be used by the electric motor they will have put the engineers at Prius to shame!!!! I'll buy tickets and wait in the audience for that one!

Let me be clear here!....... yes, the Volt will most likely "beat the prius in liquid gas mileage "while" using power taken from plugin shorepower, but once that dance is over, what then?

Keep in mind the shorepower is not free either and you have the hassle of plugging in.. how popular will that be unless it has a payoff?

At this point, I still think the Volt is only practicle for someone willlng to pay that price to use shorepower for short commutes.

As a real family car for trips and long commutes, I think it will fail.

If they could make its as efficient as the prius without the use of the plugin shorepower...... that alone would be the selling point!!!!!

As shorepower would then only add to the flexibility of use and efficiency rather than being the mainstay to function and perform adequately.

 

I feel like progress is WAY behind the demand that all of us energy conscience people have developed. Who here wouldn't have a wind turnbine in the back yard (if you own a place where's that practical) or have solar panels on the roof for free electricity? But those things are too expensive for most people even if they paid for themselves in a few years. I think a LOT of people would have every smart energy appliance, bulb or car if they could have them without breaking the bank.

This time last year I was searching for an energy smart car and leaving no stone unturned. The Volt was still kind of a concept then, though a prototype may have have existed (don't remember the exact details), and in all honesty my first reaction was this is bullshit! I couldn't believe Chevy was even going to try something like this but time went on and I gave it a chance.

Now I'm up in the air, although I lean towards the notion that this car really could work for some people. The price is insane, there's no doubt about it, and personally I think trying to mix luxury and smart economy is just stupid, but of course it does raise the bar and make the game even better so, it's good in that way. Volt should raise the bar too, though it wont be the end-all to fuel economy.

There is no end-all to fuel economy, obviously. There'll likely be a smaller Toyota hybrid soon, Honda is going to make hybrids out like 4 different cars with a new hybrid system on the way before too long, we'll most likely see the Nissan Leaf and all of these at about the same time so basically the bar is just going to continue to get higher and higher.

 

I don't know???.... Toyota seems to be moving more towards having both as much as possible... The GenII doesn't have the stabilizer bars like the Gen III has.
As in all things... some things are worth the mileage hit because they are negligible, while other things "like the chassis and total weight of the basic car" are not.

The Prius has luxuries and amenities hard to find in most luxury cars.
Especially since the GenIII came out!

The Prius GenIII added weight for the sake of more amenities and performance and still dropped the mileage by 5mph and increased interior room a tad and kept the price pretty much the same?... Good job!

The volt has the classic mentality that they have banked on for years that is finally wearing thin... and thats "if you give them a good looking car"... little else matters!

As competition increases... that just doesn't cut it anymore.

The reason suburbans, hatchbacks, and similiar style are so popular is we are all looking for a vehicle that "does it all" due to the extreme high cost these days to buy.

Aside from 4 wheeling, the Prius fits the bill pretty good to give a comfortable ride for the whole family and still be efficient.

My prius is more comfortable to drive in or be a passenger in than my Grand Cherokee 4 X 4... "go figure that!"

The GenIII is even better!

Some folks will be willing to pay 40K for a "concept" but when the roosters come home to roost and it comes down to practical living, driving and paying the bills, they will have buyers remorse unless 40K is pocket change.

 

Apparently you didn't know ... there IS even a 4 wheeling version:





sorry ... I couldn't resist going off topic a tad since everyone's reinforced all their great points ... over the dozens of pages here ... so it just seemed time to go back to "wait n see" mode. no? I'm sure GM will be back shortly with tons more PR before any product comes to market. Then we can all do another epistle on good ol' gm.

.

 

Hmmm...claimed 230 MPG EPA rating...yet another easy target from GM to bash. However, it did create much buzz about the Volt. Per GM's claimed release date, car buyers still have a year to get the details...and find some way to get on a waiting list due to limited quantities.

GM should have used 230* for a simple buzz message...and let the enthusiasts talk it up. Of course, the asterisk could be seen as a sign of weakness, but since folks are passionate about their vehicles, most of the trash talkers would have talked trash anyways. The smiling electrical receptacle could be considered the asterisk since it implies plug in is required to get the 230 MPG. However, the smiling electrical receptacle does not convey that the 230 MPG is dependent on the number of miles between plug ins. It is clear that GM does want to release the depleted battery pack MPG...which is fine. Some things should be left until the actual release of the vehicle...if the release happens (oops...now I'm talking trash). Heck...actual owners may have to report the depleted battery pack MPG if the EPA does not adopt a standard to test MPC (miles per charge). And I bet the numbers from owners will be all over the place.

 

The 74HP from the Volt engine is within 2HP of the GenII Prius engine which has 76HP.

Since the Prius can go over 100mph just on the power of the engine until the tank runs dry the Volt will be able to do similarly - maybe not 107mph as it is a larger car but probably 100mph.

Even when the Volt battery is "discharged" it will still have a significant amount of energy left (maybe 30%) for use in accelerating and hill-climbing so the acceleration will probably be unaffected.

As I said earlier in charge sustaining mode I expect the battery will be managed just as on the Prius but with a much larger battery - after accelerating or going up a hill the engine will have to run more to replenish the charge (or the replenishment may happen by regenerative braking).

So yes - you can get more HP performance than you put in.

kevin

 

Maybe as Hybrid plugins progress the EPA will have to start posting their mileage ratings based on so many miles.

In other words.... EPA = 100mpg in 100miles continuous travel or something similiar, because there there is a wide open hole for deception until the public finally gets educated.

_______________

And Hill, that Sure is a Clean Prius... did they forget to wash the tires?

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

At the end of the day, it's still a GM auto. There's simply no way to sugarcoat that fact.

No thanks. :rip:

... Brad

 

I sincerely hope the Volt proves to be a success in the marketplace. If it flops badly, that alone will set back other good hybrid vehicles

Consider how badly GM flopped the diesel car in the early 1980's. To this day, diesel cars remain a niche market in the US and Canada

 

Regen is not free, you had to make it first with kinetic force of getting the car to move.

Getting more than you put in is a perpetual motion machine... good luck!


But do we want to pay 10K more for something thats barely on par with the prius in performance?

I agree, a bigger battery is a plus and would be for the prius too, but I just want the car to be "independently" powerful enough and efficient enough without the battery so I'm not dependent upon it.. 40 miles worth of travel is not very far!

I still don't know how it will be done with more weight and a smaller ICE for backup.

I'm not trying to pick teams and slam the other side just for the sake of slamming them.. but based on their false claims in the past, they have a very poor reputation.

Rather than kill the baby before its born... let it be born and then we will all see what it turns out to be.

But lets not praise it as the messiah based on hype and flashy attention getter claims.

Without getting political, I think we all see what happens when we accept based on "what we want to hear" rather than a track record and facts.

 

You are wrong - you will be able to get more than the output of the engine in the same way that the Prius only has a 76HP engine (GenII) but can put up to 104BHP to the wheels - the battery supplies the extra power.

Think of the battery as a bank account - it still has 30% charge even when electric only mode terminates but you can still borrow more from it for accelerating or hill climbing but you have to pay it back, and with interest. In the case of the Prius the interest is close to 50% for borrowing any energy from the battery!

The 74HP from the ICE in the Volt will probably be able to maintain speeds of 90-100mph on a level road. (The Prius can do 107mph with its 76HP).


kevin

 

Kevin, I don't think anyone is worrying too much about the performance while the battery still has a charge, just not sure what the total mileage will be for gas once that party is over.

Say you go on a 300 mile trip..... you can borrow "the plugin power" or power you have already saved from regen or gas generation, but when going a constant speed of say 70... will the battery slowly deplete or will there be times when the demand will go below what the ICE can generate to give back to the battery?

If we find ourselves in a state where we need more power for a long period of time than the gas generator can supply, the battery will do nothing once its reserve is gone.

It would be good to know what that mystical speed is.

If its 80mph we're ok.. but if its 60mph.. we're not.

I don't know about you, but I need to go faster than 60mph when traveling on long trips.

All in all, we will basically be running off the gas generator once the battery is dead... so whatever that will supply is all we get.

I don't think there is too much concern at this point whether it will perform ok when the battery is charged.. but thats just a temporary luxury.

Then "mileage" is a whole different concern.

 

That is why I said add 20%. The aerodynamic drag on the Volt is going to be nearly the same as the Prius. I put forth 20% just to satisty your worries about there being enough HP at a given speed. I am sure the Volt is going to be very close to the gen 3 Prius on the highway for HP demand. Within a few percentage points.

The Volt is around 20% heavier but on the highway that is not nearly as much as of a factor as drag and the Volt and the Prius are going to be close.