GM to End Its Employee-Discount Incentive

Dave:

After a day of traveling between Winnipeg and Rochester, MN, I must admit I’m in the perfect mood for more of your responses. I can’t think of a better way to spend a boring 2 hour (One way plus transfer at Minneapolis) plane ride than researching more facts or “factoids†as you put it.

I like how when we counter your “facts†with facts, you drop them and go on to something else. Like the “better†safety rating of the Malibu vs the Camry or especially the Prius. Or how you need to escape the rear-end collision danger in a Camry, until I uncovered that IIHS rates both the Malibu and Camry a “fail†for seat construction.

Nothing like a little healthy debate to uncover these facts, and I do consider our running dialogue a “healthy†debate. If it bothers you, I really can’t see how or why. Just words on a screen my friend. I suggest ToastMasters, you’ll learn some valuable debating skills.

As far as my unreliable 2000 GMC Sierra SLT 4x4, I can state that in 25 years of driving it was the most unreliable vehicle I have ever owned, especially given it was the most I have ever spent on a vehicle and the much higher standards that vehicles are now subject to. Bad pinion seal, bad left rear axle seal, and severely lopey idle within the first two weeks are NOT a good sign.

If you think I’m “harping†about that, tough, it’s the truth. In many ways I’m your worst nightmare, a disgruntled GMC truck owner who was treated like s*** by his local GMC dealer when all the problems started. For that reason alone I’ll never step into another Chevy or GMC dealer.

If I had been treated the same way by a Toyota or Honda dealer, I’d feel the same way about them too. I get very cross when I perceive I’m being screwed.

As far as foreign cars, my dad had a 1980 Toyota 4x4 pickup he drove the h*** out of until selling it in 1990, around 275,000 miles and no problems. I have owned over the years a 1983 Dodge Omni, 1984 Ford F-150 (Still have it too), 1990 Toyota 4Runner, and a 1992 Honda Prelude.

The Dodge was just basic transportation and always had trouble with the carb. The Ford went through two water pumps and three starters until I put in an aftermarket FlowCooler water pump and a high performance starter. It currently has around 520,000km on it, mostly trouble free.

The 4Runner was mostly trouble-free along with the Honda. With around 420,000 km on it, I still got $9,800 Cdn for the 4Runner, the Prelude with 64,000km on it I got $17,000 Cdn. The few times I had an issue, such as a misaligned rear hatch on the 4Runner and a squeaky rear disk brake on the Prelude, I tore them a new one, and they fixed it pronto.

So much for your impression of me sleeping with Toyota. I assure you on this one point: if you try to screw me in a business deal, or not fix something to my satisfaction, I rip you a new one. I’m the sort of customer who believes this little rule “it’s my way or the highway.†I’m sure you prefer customers who are a lot more placid, the ones who go “baaaaaa†on command.

I suppose if a customer of yours has an issue you accuse them of “harping†and get rid of them. Like my local GMC Truck dealer did?

You did mention something about the Prius stalling issue in a previous post. Something like 30-40 out of around 100,000 units. Problem is, when I do a NHTSA search of “stall†and search by make, the domestic brands have stalling issues far more often than Prius does

I also like how you keep bringing up about how poorly made and unreliable the Pontiace Vibe is. I only had around 20 minutes to look for things in my condo today, and I’m typing this out on my notebook while in flight, but I did find my April 2004 Consumer Report’s auto issue. Couldn’t find the 2005 issues, they may be at my folks place or buried in the closet.

I do believe that IsrAmeriPrius already looked up the 2005 Consumer Report rating for the Vibe and it was similar to the 2004 report. Please correct me if I’m making it up or just wrong.

According to p67 of the April 2004 Consumer Reports, the Pontiac Vibe is rated “Recommended†and is supposed to have “Above Average†reliability. On p.40 the redesigned Chevy Malibu is too new for a reliability rating but they speak highly of it.

On p.84 the previous Malibu is rated “Not Recommended†for years 1997-2001 due to poor reliability. This is based on folks who respond to the Consumer Report questionnaire.

Of course, Consumer Report could be part of a vast conspiracy designed to destroy DC, Ford, and GM. You never know, right? Some folks also believe the earth is Flat, or at the very least has a yummy creamy nougat center.

BTW: Here is what I DID like about that 2000 GMC, in case you think I hate GM products. The things I liked are what made me all the angrier about the poor reliability:

1. The SLT leather bucket seats are the absolute BEST seats I have ever had in any car or truck I have driven or rode in. Bar none. You can drive 8 hours and not have any kinks or sore spots. Bravo to GM on great seats, at least in the GMC SLT and Chevy LT trim line. Leather I can take or leave, but they were SO comfy.

2. The “Auto†mode of the AutoTrac – when it was working and not displaying SERVICE 4WD in amber letters – was excellent in typical winter city driving

3. The optional and highly recommended Z82 factory towing package is great. The trailer electrical is isolated from the truck electrical, and you can even buy brake controllers with the proper underdash plug already hooked up. No more trailer shorts wiping out the truck lights.

I'll upload some pictures into my personal photo album here on PriusChat. Take a peek, sharp looking truck.

So now I’m a shyster too? While trying to sell my truck, I gave FULL disclosure about the repair history and produced the many dealer receipts. Thanks to that loud KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK the motor made for the first 2-5 minutes upon starting, nobody was willing to offer me any more than $16,000 Cdn.

My ad was then answered by a GMC fanatic, a person who absolutely drooled over all things Chevy or GMC. I produced the receipts, which he brushed off. I started it up, listened to that diesel-like Vortec knock, and he claimed “It’s supposed to do that, GM knows what they’re doing.†I bet.

Then he had his credit union produce a check for $20,000, gave me the check, and we did an in-and-out at the Toyota dealer. So before you accuse me of being some kind of slick used-car salesmen, I did FULL disclosure and pointed out the knocking motor and the many other faults. Every sane buyer I had tire-kicking either walked away or went down to $16,000 Cdn. Maybe I should have sent that truck to the crusher?

Anyway, I’m sure in the automotive business you sleep very well at night. Question: how do you cover up the Vortec knocking? A top-end spray? Special oil additives? Maybe you do an oil change to 20W-50? I noticed the oil made a big difference in mine, if I ran Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 or Mobil 1 15W-50 the motor became much quieter on startup.

And you have not proven, not by any stretch of the imagination, that the GMAC magic “0.0%†finance is anything but a scheme where the “true†cost of the financing is built into the car.

I repeat: the salesguy naturally figured I would be financing and only knocked off $1,500, even after I told him that was completely unsatisfactory. He wouldn’t budge. I then took out my checkbook and told him I was paying for it outright. Salesguy disappeared to talk to the “manager†and upon his return, had magically knocked off $5,500 Cdn.

Remember, my truck was a special order too. It wouldn’t be sitting on the dealer lot for months costing the dealer finance charges. It only spent one day in the shop getting washed and prepared for me.

Thus, the $4,000 difference for financing represents the “true†cost of financing. If you go to the bank, it will cost you at least 5%, probably a lot more, to borrow money. So it is patently impossible for GMAC to make wads of money by financing vehicles at 0-1% UNLESS the “true†cost is padded into the MSRP.

I’m sure every car maker does this to a certain extent. It’s all a scheme and it all involves markup and extra commissions. Please don’t make it sound like you’re doing us dumb ignorant consumers any favors.

Your “good friend†IsrAmeriPrius (He probably didn’t appreciate THAT comment) had it right. I used to live in Salt Lake City so I did a 3 minute Internet Kelly Blue Book lookup on trade-in value of a 2001 Chevy Malibu LS, 60,000 miles, “good†condition, standard equipment: $5,270. A 2001 Toyota Camry LE with V6, similar equipment, 60,000 miles, “good†condition: $7,955.

Kelly Blue Book defines “trade in value†as the probable amount the dealer will be willing to allow for your vehicle in exchange for a new one. They will then turn around and mark it up at least $2,000-$4,000, so you’re almost always better off finding a buyer and doing an in-and-out.

I find it very curious that people are now willing to pay MSRP for an import like a Toyota Prius, or a made-in-America Toyota, when they expect steep discounts for domestic names. That reflects badly on the perceived image and quality of domestic makes, doesn’t it?

True you really don’t beat up on Prius, and I could care less if you did. You seem to target Toyota in general, again who cares? What you did do was make up some “facts†and you were corrected. When I make a mistake and somebody uncovers it, I say “whoops made a mistake†and stand corrected.

I don’t recall insulting you and I do believe I have remained civil, if you don’t think so then click the little blue button at the top of my post and the moderator will look into it.

I especially like how you suggested I made it up as I went along, despite providing handy URL’s for you to research. Do you still think I’m making it up as I go along?

You never did comment on the IIHS results of frontal offset, nor did you comment on the remarks made by IIHS regarding rear whiplash protection. As a group, GM cars offer poor whiplash protection due to the headrest geometry and seat design, the exception being the Cobalt.

You also didn’t remark on the EU NCAP results of the Prius they tested. Incidentally, the Prius seat design is markedly different from the Camry. So we’ve hashed over the crash test differences of the Malibu, Camry (This isn’t a Camry forum but I’ll play along), and the Prius.

You really can’t compare the EU NCAP results as they are far stricter than the NHTSA frontal and IIHS offset crashes, so an “average†result there is an “excellent†result here.

What really steams me about GM, the Big Three overall, is that they received $2 billion DOE taxpayer dollars to make a car just like the Prius. And they blew it big time. They even had the EV1, a VERY practical car for city drivers like myself, and what did they do? They crushed them.

GM then bet everything on high markups in large pickups and SUV’s, and they blew the wad when that market tanked due to high gas prices. Sounds like poor management and poor planning.

Don’t blame the “brainwashed†Toyota or Honda or Nissan or whatever buyers for the problems at GM. And don’t even THINK of blaming all those hard working UAW folks in the assembly plants. Put the blame right at the Ivory Tower of GM Corporate Headquarters.

In the end I strongly question if you really were serious about a Prius, or were on some sort of “mission†to see just how “brainwashed†we are at PriusChat. We comment on the entire car, warts and all.

This must appeal to folks in the EU, because the official Toyota UK website has a link to PriusChat. That speaks volumes, doesn’t it?

Please don’t leave though. I really enjoy this banter with you, and as I have time I’ll keep it up. As a warning, I can still type sustained around 120 WPM, so expect quick and lengthy replies.

Jay

 

Oh boy. I didn't see this one.

I just have this to say:
My husband has been working on cars off and on since the age of 16. When he was 21, he decided that the career for him was in a mechanic's bay fixing cars. Eventually he got the basic set of tools he needed and graduated from oil change to very basic tech work. He had a series of GM cars which he took apart to varying degrees after they failed him, and really liked them. He was, in fact, a really die-hard GM fan. He insisted we rebuild my old Buick and attempted to being his old Saturn back to life after the timing chain holder snapped and bashed up the engine head. He really wanted to see these cars do well on the road. He even considered getting a 3-year apprenticeship at the local Saturn dealer. That didn't work out because I knew right away it would take me less than 3 years to get through my first degree. So he took a job doing minor repairs until we could figure something out.
When his Saturn bit the dust, we were in a bad spot. So his stepdad gave him an old 88 Camry. It needed some work. Brakes, a little clutch work, the typical stuff you see on a car with 200K miles on it. One week into his spare-time repairs he was fully converted to Toyota. He said he had never seen a car that was put together so logically. Even his former favorite company, GM, could not compare to his old school Camry. He spent his free time taking things apart and putting them together, just to see how Toyota did it.
That admiration of design got him to apply for a job at the Toyota dealership near our new home when we moved out here. He has never been happier working on any car out there. There has been ONE time he came home saying something didn't make sense. Logic is a big thing for him. Gm didn't cut it.
Every time we see a GM car on the road he laughs about how he was so foolish to ever want to work on those things. He got me a Prius, which was not offered at any kind of employee discount rather than a Camry which would have cost about $9000 less. Because he wanted me in the best, and neatest car he could get his hands on that would make me happy.
He also would have considered a Jetta, but if I mentioned a Malibu he would have just laughed at me. I mean, we are going to be putting children in that car one of these years.

So there you have it. A die-hard GM fan turned away by the stupidity of their product.

I'm a grad student, and along with that comes a general financial tension. But you can bet I wouldn't have considered buying a GM car even with the low prices they're offering... The quality isn't there. We've seen Camrys run 250K miles, and all of our GMs died before 150K.

 

G:

Funny thing is, I LIKE Buick cars. I really do.

My parents have a Lease Return 2003 Buick LeSabre Celebration Edition they purchased in 2004 to replace a '93 LeSabre. Their current LeSabre has a slick and luxurious ride, fairly good fuel economy for the size, and it tracks like on rails.

I'm unsure about long-term or high miles though, and I doubt the folks will put on miles given their age and health problems. The car had 20,400km when they purchased it and only has 28,700km or so right now. Hate to say it the car will probably outlast them.

Where I get really steamed is that GM as a corporation appears to expect their customers to disengage their cerebral cortex. Or at least most of it as a damage deposit for GMAC.

Sorry in a grumpy mood. Bah hambug.

Jay

 

Jay-

I LOVED that comment about GM requiring customers to diesngage their cerebral cortex. Oh, that gave me a good laugh. That's some corporate policy. :lol:

I agree, the Buick was a nice ride. It's made to be smooth. But a car that doesn't even last 150K sounds like planned obsolescence to me. At about 100K the overall quality turned to complete crap, even with regular maintenance. Felt every bump on the road, even with good suspension, engine noise got very loud even with tune ups and minor adjustments, valve knock got irritating. Hubby's Camry is over 250K right now and still running strong. Amazingly quiet.

My grandparents had a 2001 Century, had so many problems they had to junk it. Got a used 03 to replace it, and it already needs a ton of work. I just don't know about that. The thing isn't all that old.

Something about that doesn't sit right with me.

Oh. And cheer up

G

 

I just saw this message posted in another forum. It says it all:

 

That wouldn't sit well with me either.

G

Sorry bout that. Am currently in Rochester MN at the Mayo Clinic. My Mom had some weird health problems that turned out to be a severely perforated ulcer. Operation was a sucess and docs are confident of good recovery. Still, it is a worry.

J

 

J-
Oh, sorry to hear that. Glad the operation was a success though, and I hope she has a speedy recovery.

Mayo is one of the top healthcare institutions in the nation. I think you went to the right place, very high-quality care. My friend's mom is a nurse there.

I actually considered their graduate program in pharmacology, then decided that 60 miles from my college town wasn't far enough away. I hold them in very high esteem, though.

 

G:

My folks certainly think so. They figure they worked for it all their lives and have no real need to buy things, so why not look after their health.

They've had a tough sell to their Canadian friends though! Rather shocking concept to a Canadian of BUYING your good health. The alternative is endless waits and postponements.

What is very odd is that a fairly well-to-do family will think nothing of dropping $65,000+ on a luxury vehicle with horrific depreciation, but will balk at $15,000 for the full physical, several CAT's and an MRI with consult.

You can't take it with you ...

J

 

my dad, born and raised in Detroit, retired Army, and rarely will you find a more dedicated, flag waving, American.

he has driven nearly all Toyotas (except a Ford F-250 because at the time Toyota didnt have a full size pickup and needed it to pull a fifth wheel) since the late 70's.

you what convinced him? he bought an old Toyota Corona, 1968. was a cheap little four banger. first time my dad had owned a car that had more than 200,000 miles on it. well it needed work. (bought it for $150) that little four banger had a 5 main bearings. was the most solid 4 banger he had ever seen (realize this was when there were practically no 6 cylinders available in an american car much less a 4 cylinder)

he didnt become a Toyota convert right then... but the seed was planted. he just bought a 2005 Camry, never considered another make of car. wanted a Prius, but was late for a reunion golf tournament in North Carolina somewheres so he picked one off the lot cause he couldnt wait any longer.

 

I had a 1996 Saturn Coupe. No major complaints about that car. Little stuff though.

I've had the brackets that hold the engine replaced four times. They keep breaking, then the engine vibrates like nobody's business. The last time I complained it was lousy design. The technician said it was considered a part that required periodic replacement.

I had to have the window trim on replaced within a year because it was "peeling". They did it under warranty the first time. And I heard that it was a common problem. I paid the second time. And I told them if it happened again I would just spray paint it myself.

I've had to have the bracket that holds the manual "stick" replaced twice. Luckily both times it was under warranty. One morning I got in the car and it was all wonky. I couldn't shift into first, barely got it into second and third. Sweated getting to the dealer. They said the clip that held it had broken and replaced it. The second time it happened I knew what it was and drove there immediately.

I must say I've had the best experience with maintaining my Saturn at the dealership. No complaints there.

And I should mention.....this car had less than 50,000 miles on it when I sold it.

I should also mention I had about the same experiences with my first car, 1974 Ford Pinto hatchback, 1984 Nissan 200SX hatchback. The only major thing the Ford needed was a new starter when it was 8 years old. The Nissan needed a brain transplant at 9 years old. That was a good $500 so it wins for being the biggest money pit.

Now my Dad is a Cadillac man. Ever since he could afford a Cadillac, he's owned one as the family car. He started buying them new in the 70s. The first car I drove was a used 1964. Drove it to High School and College. They wanted a lot of metal around me. Of course...when it rained I had to get out and hit the wiper box with my shoe until they'd start going. But the car ran great. At that time it was only 8 years old.

They own a 1998 Caddy now. Leather seats. Passenger side is heated but not drivers side. You can adjust them every which way electrically but no memory. They're both retired so that car has about 50,000 miles on it. But my Mom complains that the shocks need replacing and it really takes a lot of oil. She's ridden in my Prius several times. Commented on how smooth the transmission is. But complains the seats aren't leather. She said my Dad just loves the GM engine in the Caddy and won't give it up, even though it takes a lot of oil.

I haven't been able to get my Dad to even ride in my Prius. Weird since he is an engineer...you'd think he'd be curious about how it works.

But that is all going to change.

Next week, Wednesday, a week from tomorrow.....I'm taking my Dad to L.A. to see the Tut exhibit. It will be 100 miles up and 100 miles back. And we're going in my Prius. He'll *have* to ride in it then.

I'm anticipating nitpicky complaints. But I also suspect he'll be watching the screen a lot too.

I'm hoping that eventually when the Caddy goes....depending on what Toyota is offering in the hybrid line....I'll be able to get them to go HSD. For my Mom it's comfort and reliability. For my Dad it will be money. If he can get anything like a Cadillac equivalent that gets twice the mileage with half the maintenance....that could do it. No....I doubt they'll go for a Lexus, not at those prices. No SUVs. Has to be a regular car.

My Mom has said nice things about the neighbor's Camry down the street.

My Mom will be easy.

My Dad needs some work.

180 hours and counting.