GM to End Its Employee-Discount Incentive

I didn't know how the distribution and sales worked. With that bit of "inside" fact, I'm even more disturbed than before. Sounds like the entire risk is on the dealer, so I imagine many go under.

So the cars are either shipped off to other dealers or rental fleets or auctioned off. Thus the poor resale as the market is glutted with almost new vehicles at bargain basement pricing.

 

Jayman,
Next time you buy a vehicle that has a rebate do me a favor since it's really a scam. Ask to buy the vehicle for invoice and then have them send me rebate. I will find something to to use it for.

 

Well ... I guess I'm going to have to be a bit more patient trying to explain this.

What "rebate" are you referring to? The "official" rebate the buyer supposedly gets, or the "hidden" rebate the dealer gets.

That is, is the MSRP the "real" MSRP? Or does it reflect padding to cover the 0.0% financing? If the MSRP didn't reflect padding, then the same number would apply to outright purchase vs financing.

There was a bit of a stink raised up here about that sort of gimmick, so now in the fine print the dealer has to disclose "dealer keeps all rebates" or something along that line.

So does that mean with all this "employee pricing" now in effect, that GM and all their dealers are losing wads of money on each unit? Like the Loss Leader pricing you'll find in a store?

Or is the "employee pricing" a more accurate reflection of wholesale pricing? I do believe Consumer Reports have printed many articles on the "gotcha" involved in what the "real" MSRP is.

When you figure that most banks, credit unions, etc, won't even touch a car loan for under 5-6% up here, I'm highly suspicious that GMAC can offer 0.0% or 0.9%, and yet claim to be a huge profit maker for GM.

Since it's patently impossible for GMAC to obtain money for the same rate they claim to offer (0-0.9%) then they obviously have to build the "cost" into the MSRP.

You still haven't bothered to explain why the dealer I ordered my 2000 GMC Sierra from had two different prices for me: one if financed through GMAC, a far lower one when I cut them a check on the spot.

Oh, 3,000 miles later when my Vortec 5.3 started to make that cold start knock, they should also have knocked off another $5,000-10,000. The only person I could find to buy that stupid thing was a GM fanatic who was delusional enough to ignore the knock knock knock knock.

Nothing in life is free, you pay for it one way or another. Often, you pay dearly for knowledge.

 

The EV1 was a great car and I wish I could buy one. I'm curious why GM sent them to the crusher, too much of a good thing?

During the 90's, the Big Three received around $2 billion taxpayer dollars from DOE (United States Department Of Energy) to research advanced things like hybrids.

By the late 90's they had apparently given up, stating the cars would be exotically expensive, and furthermore the consumer didn't want a fuel efficient car but a giant gas-guzzling SUV. Around 2 years after The Big Three gave up, the first generation Prius, and the Honda Insight, went on sale here.

I have no sympathy for GM, although I do worry about the UAW folks in the plants. GM has nobody to blame for the mess they're now in except really dumb management.

 

Jayman,
Yes a dealer takes a risk. It's very unusual for a GM store to go out of business unless GM closes them. ie: Oldsmobile.

A ton of new vehicles are sold to rental car companies. The companies use them for a while and then sell them back to GM. I wonder why they buy 100 times more from GM than Toyota since they only keep them for a short time and then resell them back? I won't speculate but as you know, rental car companies are in business to make money and their biggest cost is vehicle ownership and depreciation.

Jayman said: "There was a bit of a stink raised up here about that sort of gimmick, so now in the fine print the dealer has to disclose "dealer keeps all rebates" or something along that line."

That probably came about because SOME people couldn't grasp the concept the rebate worked one of 3 ways. The buyer got the cash back in the form of a check. (that's a bad choice because then it qualifies as income and is taxable) The money was applied to the vehicle to lower the bottom line or the rebate was given to the lender to buy down the interest rate. I don't know how to explain it any better than that. Please re-read the previous post on the topic or would someone please help me explain this to Jayman.

Jaman said: "That is, is the MSRP the "real" MSRP? Or does it reflect padding to cover the 0.0% financing? If the MSRP didn't reflect padding, then the same number would apply to outright purchase vs financing."
Pulling my hair out.
Try looking at it this way. The MSRP is the same whether the rebate is $0 or $10,000,000. When you have a rebate the manufacture takes money from a different pot of money, different account, reserve or what have you. That money is not tied to the price of the car in any way. It is a fund set up to pay for the rebate. It's the same as every mail-in rebate from legitimate companies selling printers to dog houses. The difference in the car rebate is you have a choice of 3 ways to use it. Lower the price of the car, get it back in cash or using it to lower the rate of the loan.

Yes the profits are very thin on the employee program but GM kicks in to the dealer so he doesn’t lose money.

Jayman said: " You still haven't bothered to explain why the dealer I ordered my 2000 GMC Sierra from had two different prices for me: one if financed through GMAC, a far lower one when I cut them a check on the spot.
I've explained it about 10 different ways but can't get you to understand.

You haven’t bothered to explain or address my earlier statement. “Did you know it (the Malibu) cost less than the Camry, has more power than the Camry, gets better mileage than the Camry, is safer than the Camry and has been rated higher than the Camry the last two years?†I think the fact you and others ignored that factoid speaks volumes. It’s probably explains why Camry still outsells the Malibu. Sometimes we won’t let facts get in the way of opinion.

As far as a bad vehicle goes, you keep harping on your 2000 GMC. Every manufacture has problems with vehicles. Have you done a search lately for problems with Toyota’s? You can find plenty of problems there as well. I have seen Toyota’s come in here with the customer angry about the car and wanting it gone. Repair cost is the biggest issue I have seen the Toyota buyers angry about. I have seen the same thing with GM vehicles. My 1986 Suburbans has to be at the very top end of a quality Suburban. We all have different experiences. This is why the ratings are used by all of us and why it makes me feel good Malibu is a better buy and a better vehicle than the Camry. (even though it doesn’t sell like it)

Please don’t ask me anymore rebate questions. My feeble mind cannot explain it better than I already have. If you still think it’s a scam you will stay angry about it for a long time because all manufactures use it, including Toyota.

 

GM and Ford virtually give their vehicles away to the rental car companies and guaranty to repurchase them at predetermined prices. Toyota does not need to resort to these tactics in order to sell its product.

Even though I had a positive experience driving a Malibu rented from Avis this past winter, I'd never consider buying one. The interior looks and feel cheap and the exterior styling is hideous. The car has a poor resale value and service departments at GM dealers are notoriously consumer unfriendly. If only GM invested as much in product development as it does in training its sales force to spew the company line.

In case you have not noticed, it isn't 1986 any longer. Besides, my dad owned a similar vintage Cadillac DeVille (bought new) which disintegrated in less than fives years. Do you really expect him to ever consider buying another GM product?

In recent years, GM's only success has been in selling oversized gas guzzling SUVs. That market has collapsed with the rapid rise of gasoline prices. GM neglected the rest of the market segments and that it sadly reflected in its current line up. You keep touting the Malibu, can you please explain why the highly promoted Pontiac G6 bombed in the marketplace?

 

Well, first of all a brand new vehicle is highly unlikely to have problems anyway. And if they do have problems, I would imagine the rental company is off the hook thanks to the warranty, unless you can prove abuse.

As far as the ratio, it's probably a lot cheaper for a fleet to get 1,000 Cavaliers than 1,000 Corolla's. That's why you should never buy new a popular rental/fleet vehicle as it will have horrific depreciation.

Now that really sounds like hocus-pocus accounting! It's the same company, how can it be different money?

So it's one of those "rob Peter to pay Paul" sort of things? I don't see how that helps GM in the end ...

Yep, actually quite a bit less.

Wouldn't be surprised. Though not everybody cares about tire-smoking acceleration.

I've heard good things about the new V6 used in the Malibu. According to the official EPA fuel economy testing, the V6 Malibu is rated 22 city, 32 highway. The Camry 3.0 V6 is rated 21 city, 29 highway, the 2.4 motor is rated 24 city, 34 highway.

According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, the +2004 Malibu is rated "good" with "acceptable" ratings for the crash test head (Crash test dummy bottomed out the airbag and contacted the steering wheel) and right foot (Minor intrusion into the footwell area).

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety rated the +2002 Camry a "best pick" due to its crash performance in the 40 MPH offset crash. They gave an "acceptable" to the right leg as the right tibia contacted the lower dash area.

So how is the Malibu "safer" than the Camry? The IIHS rates both cars about the same, the difference between the "safer" Camry and the Malibu is very minor.

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/c...e/html/0202.htm

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/c...e/html/0406.htm

The earlier Malibu is rated quite a bit worse:

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/c.../html/99025.htm

A similar vintage (1997-2001) Camry is quite a bit safer:

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/c.../html/96028.htm

It could be that the average savvy consumer has been to both a Chevy dealership and a Toyota dealership, has driven both cars, and after all that decided to buy the Camry.

That little factoid speaks volumes about what people must think about Chevy dealerships. Otherwise, on a technical basis, the Malibu is at least as good, and is cheaper too. Especially if you wait for a one year lease return.

Unless Consumer Reports is completely lying about it - and if they are I suggest that GM sue them for libel - their Reliability ratings do NOT reflect what you have said. Just the opposite in fact.

What left me with a very bad taste in my mouth was GMC insisting that the piston slap or cold start knock or whatever they call it now for the Vortec 5.3 was "normal." They also claimed oil consumption up to 1 litre every 1,000km (Call it 1 quart every 600 miles) was "normal."

I had many other issues, the biggest overall being that lovely "drum in hat" parking brake assembly on the rear disk brakes. See, I was going to buy a Tundra, but out of curiosity looked at the Sierra. Overall I was very impressed with how it was put together, very nice.

The GMC salesguy even pointed out the four wheel disk brakes, and how much more superior they were to the Tundra which had, and still has, rear drums. I had a lot of trouble with those rear drum-in-hat" parking brakes, and when they finally wore out just before warranty was up, GM insisted it was "normal" wear.

I've never worn out parking brakes in my life. My 1984 Ford F-150, that I bought new, still has the original rear drums and rear parking brake cables. Yet a 3 year old Sierra needed new rear shoes?

I noticed that for 2005 GM very quietly went back to rear drums on the half tons.

It all depends on what the repair is all about. On the one hand, you can defer everything but oil changes for the first 100,000 miles and claim an absurdly low cost of ownership. Then you start getting into very expensive component replacement.

Ok I won't. It wasn't my intention to get you all fired up, just to find out why GM has one "price" if you finance and a different "price" if you cut them a check.

I guess I'll just have to accept as mysterious New Math - despite the fact I had all 4 years of college Calculus - that GMAC can make wads of money financing at "0%" when Prime is slightly over 6%.

 

Thanks for reminding me about the deprecation factor as one of the reason I will not consider buying a Malibu. I mentioned it in my original response to dieseldave which vanished into cyberspace when PriusChat crashed (as it all too often does) when I posted my reply to him.

 

I am sorry to say that all American cars blow. :guns:

 

Thanks for all the comments. Some of it actually made me laugh and we GM supporters certainly need something to smile about.

Here are some links to some of the non-problems with 2005 Toyota’s. Like I said before some of you put your head in the sand, all vehicles have some problems. OBTW: Where does Consumr reports get their data? They get it from their own testing. How many 2005 Malibu’s and how many 2005 Camry’s did they test? One, two, three? In my opinion, JD Powers would be far more accurate. They contact a huge sampling of owners of each vehicle and conduct a survey. THEY contact the owner. On Consumer Reports anyone, owner, non-owner, person with a grudge or a super fan can write a report and CR does nothing to verify they actually own the vehicle. I’m not saying Consumer reports isn’t great but I am saying there is other very good data available.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/vi...w/.ee9950e/3523

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/toyota_camr...er_reviews.html

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/vi...w/.ef0a161/1878

How about the fault free Prius?
http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/16/Autos/priu...mputer/?cnn=yes

Want more?
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/vi...ef28f9c.ef28f96

Here are some of those crummy rental cars that Toyota supposedly doesn’t sell but unless Budget is lying apparently does.
http://www.bonaire-budgetcar.com/rates.html

No this is not 1986 but my personal Suburban was a good one that year, the specific one I own, I wasn’t implying all of them. This also isn’t 2000, 2001, 2002 or 2003 when the Camry was about as safe as the Malibu and rated higher than the Malibu. I guess yall’s argument on resale goes something like this: When people pay more in resale for a vehicle that’s inferior it makes the inferior vehicle a better buy.

Jayman, you’re the greatest

In one place you imply performance isn’t all that important but you might want to check the crash ratings again and you will see you want all the performance you can get when driving a Camry. You darn sure want to get out of the way in that car, the rear crash rating is downright scary. All the stats I quoted on the Malibu should be the primary reasons you buy a vehicle. If the placements were reversed you would beat me over the head with them. I noticed they haven’t tested the Prius, or at least haven’t reported the results, hmm. Just kidding with the hmmm. Do you know of any crash results on the car?

This theme that was repeated by just about everyone, “ The Malibu is uglyâ€. When it beats Camry in every meaningful area that’s all you have left to defend with, please. Come on, you people drive the Prius. I love the car but my gosh, it’s so ugly it’s cute but none of you could possibly say you bought the car because it looks good. The car looks like a morphed Pinto Brougham. You bought the car because of what it does Performance and stats wise, ie: 50+MPG, so get off the lame argument of, “the Malibu is uglyâ€


Did I mention I’m driving a Silverado Hybrid this evening? I know you real Hybird drivers don’t accept it as a true Hybird and I understand why. I won’t drive a car that small for many reasons so the Prius won’t work for me but like I continue to say, I like the car. All I can say in the Silverado Hybrid’s defense is at least someone is building a full size hybrid, it has a built in 2,400 watt generator that’s super cool and it could tow 3 Prius’s.

Lastly, accuse me of toeing the party line, listen to yourselves. You guys sound like you married the daughters of the CEO of Toyota. It’s like talking with two of the three monkeys, hear no evil and see no evil. The unabashed party line yall put out is the reason I posted in this forum to begin with. I never even brought up the Cobalt which I know yall don’t want to hear about because you will end up saying it’s ugly as well. The fact remains, the worst current vehicle for customer satisfaction in the GM line (albeit tied with a few others) it the 2005 Pontiac Vibe, built with Toyota parts and assembled by Toyota.

It’s clear I can’t get yall to have an open mind and maybe I’m the same way. Heck, you guys indirectly admit the Malibu is better but would still pay more for the lesser Camry and tens of thousands of other people feel the same way. GM burned some bridges in the 70’s and 80’s with disasters like the, 4-6-8 Cadillac, Vega, Converted gas to diesel engine and others. A lot of people even thought the Prism was junk and as you all know, it was a Corolla. Toyota built a good rep in the 70’s with no-frills reliable transportation and continue the tradition. The fact GM has caught up in many areas, lag in some and are ahead in some won’t change the minds of the masses of hard core Toyota fans for some time to come, if ever. I won’t do anything here but slow down yalls party and aggravate myself so I leave it with you. It has been nice conversing with all of you. It has remained civil which is all we can really ask of one another at the end of the day.

As to SyZyGy’s comment. Did you set down your beer for that pearl of Toyota mantra or did ya one hand it?

So long

 

You obviously are not familiar with my posting history. I have criticized some aspects of the Prius.

I never said that the Malibu is better than the Camry. I have driven both. The Malibu is competitive, but it is not as good a package overall, and, yes looks do matter and I happen to like the futuristic looks of the current Prius (I did not care for the previous model).

You can find anecdotal evidence of problems with cars of all makes and models. The key for reputation is the long term experience (not just two or three years) of a large representative cross section of owners.

Consumer Reports reliability ratings are based on more than just their tests, but also on surveys of hundreds of thousands of subscriber owners, perhaps a larger number than J. D. Powers surveys.

Resale values speak volumes on quality of automobiles. It is all about supply and demand. The marketplace is not as dumb as you would make it be.

If you tried to drum up sales for Chevrolet, all you have succeeded in doing here is alienate potential customers.

Good bye Troll, it’s been fun.

P.S. You had to go all the way to Curacao to find Toyota rental cars? I could have found them much closer for you, but not in the quantities that GM and Ford dump on the rental companies.

 

I've seen how the site labels someone that doesn't toe the company line a troll and that's fine, it's yall's playground. I'm trying to leave but the baiting brought me back.

Go price a very low mileage used Silverado. You can buy a new one for about the same price even though they make over a million of them a year. The Prius does awesome for resale but how many of them do they make a year, 100,000? Let them make a million a year and then see if they resell for window sticker. I hope they do. I want more Hybrids and EV's but when it comes to resale and one company makes 7,000,000 and one company makes 2,000,000 then it's apples and oranges.

 

Your tone has been quite commendable especially being outnumbered. With respect to CR. Every year they send questionaires to all their subscribers to obtain the results of the car's reliability. I am sure there are some people who submit incorrect information, but statistically I believe their results are very accurate.

I must take issue with the comment about the Prius being ugly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I actually think the Prius is cool looking. Yes, yes, yes we know the Malibu is UGLY. I sat in one at the car show and the interior quality can't hold a candle to the Camry.

I am not married to the CEO of Toyota but being American it is a sad commentary to bash GM. Let's face it, the Asians have us beat. Their cars are simply better than ours so get over it already. Heck... the new Hyundai Sonata (2006) is MUCH better than the Malibu in terms of looks, price, heck EVERYTHING!!

Tell me why all the car magazines always rate GM car interiors CHEAP. Why? Because they are!!! Why is there always talk about gap tolerances being too large on GM cars.

I hope you stay and continue to defend GM. You have every right to particpate. Enjoy your Silverado.

 

Next you will accuse us of tying you up with a ball and chain to your computer.

Your logic is flawed. Toyota sells about 400,000 Camrys a year. Chevy sells how many Malibus? Not quite as many, I bet, since the Camry is the best selling car in the United States. How come the Camry's resale values are infinitely higher than the Malibu's? According to your line of reasoning it should retain its value better due to its smaller numbers. Besides, here we go again. Toyota's worldwide sales last year were just under the 7,000,000 mark. In fact, it has taken over the number two spot from Ford. Toyota's sales are driven by the quality of its product despite your car salesman's protestations to the contrary.

 

Did I mention I’m driving a Silverado Hybrid this evening? I know you real Hybird drivers don’t accept it as a true Hybird and I understand why. I won’t drive a car that small for many reasons

spoken like a true GM salesman. so why are you here?

 

Yep, they all do. I'm interested in the statistics behind the problem history. That is, will most of them experience very minor but nagging issues, or will a tiny handful of them experience crippling and expensive failure?

I guess if I hadn't taken all 4 years of college calculus I wouldn't be so darn picky about the numbers. The numbers that folks in your profession want to keep secret, or at least have us ignore.

CR sends out questionairres to all subscribers and they ask reliability questions about everything: car, washing machine, VCR, DVD player, etc etc. Most of them are answered honestly.

I trust CR as they don't depend on advertising from corproations to pay their bills, but rather subscriptions from consumers. Thus, they don't have to worry about "offending" an advertiser and losing wads of revenue by giving a poor review.

I've noticed many of these self-proclaimed "consumer" sites rarely badmouth a product unless they know they have nothing to lose. Since Prius is rarely advertised, nothing to lose.

How is the database populated for that sort of research? Oh geez, there goes that nasty calculus background of mine again! IOW how is the sample studentized? I've never been contacted by JD Powers, and nobody I know has ever been contacted by JD Powers.

How about that fault free 2000 GMC Sierra SLT extended cab 4x4 with sportside box in sunset gold metallic? You know, the one that had the MSRP of $44,000? A very striking vehicle, it really caught your eye. Too bad it never lived up to the implied promise.

I guess you didn't read the URL's I provided about Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The years you mentioned the Camry was judged safer than the Malibu.

Supply and demand, also *true* market perceptions. I do believe IsrAmeriPrius already brought this up so I see no need to go further.

Careful Son, you're getting personal. We kind of frown upon that here, this isn't a GMC Truck forum.

I really love how you corporate GM folks make it up as you go along. Is that what you tell your customers? Then you are LYING to them. There is an old saying: liar liar pants on fire. At least that's how my Mom would tell it to me.

Let's pay a visit to our friends at The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. First, we'll see how they actually determine the ratings for whiplash protection:

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/h...raints/head.htm

Let's compare head restraint performance for the Toyota cars:

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/h...head_toyota.htm

You will notice that the overall whiplash protection is rated "Poor" for the Avalon, Camry, and Corolla. Now scroll down the page a bit more to "other" Toyota cars. The Prius is rated "Good."

Now let's compare the Malibu for the simulted whiplash prevention:

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/h.../head_chevy.htm

You will notice that overall the GM cars are rated "Poor." The Cobalt is rated "Good" and the "new" Malibu is rated "Acceptable." However, when tested to actual crash protection, that is overall seat construction, the Camry and Malibu rate the same: FAIL:

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/h...etails_page.htm

So I guess you can use the superior power of the Malibu to hopefully avoid a rear-end accident. The only problem, Dave, is this. Statistically - there I go again with the fancy math talk - you are most likely to be rear ended at a red light. More than likely, there is a vehicle already in front of you, so you have nowhere to escape to.

Hmmm the only Prius crash test results I know of were done last year by the EU New Car Assessment Program, which is a far stricter series of tests than NHTSA and IIHS combined:

http://www.euroncap.com

http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_rat...p?id1=3&id2=193

Very good results for the Prius. You will notice the Euro NCAP even tests how "friendly" a car is to striking a pedestrian. I rather doubt you have traveled much in the UK or Germany, but they really do worry about that issue in high density, congested urban areas.

They also tested a 1998 Camry with above-average results, nowhere near as safe as the Prius though.

I couldn't find the Malibu in NCAP, so I guess they are not sold in Europe. However, I did find a car that is sold both in North America and Europe, the Chrysler PT Cruiser. According to NHTSA, this car has a 4/5 star rating, so it *should* be safe.

According to NCAP, the PT Cruiser did only average:

http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_rat...p?id1=7&id2=138

So I would love to see GM sell the Malibu in Europe and see how the crash test results are over there.

Once GM offers a mass-production car with the same fuel economy, not that lame Korean made Aveo, then I might consider going back into a GM dealership.

I just find is amusing that on the one hand GM knocks down Honda and Toyota hybrids, then rolls out a "mild" hybrid. According to the U.S. DOE, it's rated 18 city and 21 highway.

A halfton Chevy 2WD with the V6 and auto is rated 16 city and 21 hwy. The 4.8 Vortec with auto is rated 16 city and 21 hwy - so get at least a 4.8 and auto, you don't save anything with the V6. The 5.3 Vortec and auto is rated 16 city and 20 hwy.

So the hybrid Silvo gains 2 MPG city and either nothing or 1 MPG highway. Hey, we're VERY impressed. Keep it up!

Yes, that IS a neat feature. Hopefully Toyota will introduce that to the newer Prius and the Hybrid Highlander, I would be very impressed then. Sure would beat having a generator around during a power failure, just plug into your Prius and let it do its thing.

Some folks have already converted Prius to do just that, but I don't think it's an approved option.

If you had bothered to search for postings done by Jayman you would have quickly found out that is completely untrue. So why don't you do that before knocking me down or knocking us down? On average we don't kiss up to a certain brand or image.

Wow, listen to the teapot calling the kettle BLACK! We could just as easily acuse you of the same thing.

BTW, since your handle is "dieseldave" do you at least drive a "proper" diesel like a Duramax?

The best thing that could have happened to GM and all those awful 5.7, 6.2, and 6.5 diesel motor reputation was to have ISUZU design and build your new truck diesel. So although you knock down Asian makers, ISUZU certainly seems to have saved GM's reputation in the HD truck market.

Actually, I think it's okay. Hopefully the Cobalt will be offered with fuel efficient turbodiesel and hybrid motors to help sales, so GM doesn't enter bankruptcy.

BTW: if you need to know how to make *proper* small car turbodiesel motors, take a peek at the GM Opel subsidiary in Europe. They seem to know how to make very fuel efficient and popular small family cars. You might learn something from them.

Yes, we do have an open mind, and no, you don't appear to. Quite a few of us transitioned from crappy domestic cars/trucks. I'm the first to admit I would MUCH rather purchase domestic, but not if I have to put up with something unreliable.

And where can I buy a domestic car with the same fuel economy and size as the Prius?

Geez, I wish I had read all the way down to that comment before replying. I've wasted all this time on another troll.

Monday he'll be at the Chevy dealership telling lies about how unreliable and unsafe the Prius is, and how safe the Malibu is.

 

The troll is gone but I just couldn't resist:

I got rid of my 2000 in Sept of 2004. It had around 72,000km on it, or roughly 45,000 miles. Always rustproofed and always garaged, very picky maintenance, and not a nick on it. In that Sunset Gold paint and sportside box it looked awesome.

Matte of fact, when I get back to Winnipeg tomorrow, if I have time I'll put a picture of that truck in my personal album. I took a bunch of pictures at the hobby farm when I was trying to sell it. A fresh detail and geez it looked sharp!

That truck with somewhat over $44,000 MSRP I could only get $20,000. On average, they were going for $16,000-$18,000. I got more because it looked like it just left the showroom floor.

Last Saturday's Winnipeg Free Press Automotive section featured 2 year lease return Silvo's and Sierra's that new would have sold for about $36,000-$42,000 Cdn. All had under 20,000km / 12,000 miles and were going for $20,000-$28,000.

 

The personal insults don’t bode well with me and I’ve refrained from personal attacks. It’s just me against all you hot-shot gunslingers. I don’t know if I can take the pressure but let me try some more facts for you to ignore.

Earlier Jayman goes on and on in post after post about how big a piece of junk his 2000 GMC truck was. Now he tells us how he sold his showroom truck to some unsuspecting soul for more than others sell theirs for because it's so nice. Wow, how do ya sleep nights? He actually sells his 4-year-old 70k km truck for more than 50% of what he paid for it new. He uses the number $44k now but his old post where his higher math skills, 4 years of calculus not withstanding, prevented him from grasping rebate and finance incentives. Jayman said he got a $5k discount so I assume he did. My higher math skills come up with $39k for what he paid but I'm just a dumb old car guy. The 2001 Camry has a lower resale % than that, both vehicles 4 years old with 70k km / 50k miles at time of quote.

To give the devil his due: The Camry does have a much better resale from MSRP than the Malibu. I just researched resale from the actual price you can buy a Camry and Malibu from. ( I gotta get out of here. Yall are working my nice person off) My research assumed the Camry sells for MSRP but even if it’s a $1000-$1,500 discount the 2004 Malibu still has the same or less deprecation from actual purchase price. Unlike what my good friend IsrAmeriPrius said, “Camry's resale values are infinitely higher than the Malibu's†Well folks, that statement is infinitely bogus unless you use MSRP of both and then the word infinitely is still bogus, they aren’t even that far apart that way. I used actual 2004 dealer wholesale values and said each car had 20k miles and was a 6cyl automatic with average equipment, no leather or other fancy options. I tried to use the typical car you see for sale the most often and tried to err in Camry’s favor if at all. For new car pricing I used Toyota.com and Chevy.com and used the employee price. The employee price will probably be about $1,000 higher on Tuesday for the Malibu. Either way, it’s close. All the big resale slams against Malibu are a myth. The resale on Camry should be a big number, the actual sale price is a big number. The cars are $4,500 apart wholesale but the purchase price new of each one, again assuming MSRP on the Toyota is about 6k difference. The MSRP’s I used were about $2,400 different. The Camry XLE and Malibu LT actual sale price to actual resale are even more favorable to Malibu. If we want to get anal then we can talk about saving the $$$$ up front on the Malibu and what that saves you in finance charges or what else you do to invest the money but since you guys will blow off this latest factoid, what does it matter.

Jayman said: "Geez, I wish I had read all the way down to that comment before replying. I've wasted all this time on another troll.

Monday he'll be at the Chevy dealership telling lies about how unreliable and unsafe the Prius is, and how safe the Malibu is.

There's that troll comment again. I decided to go ahead and take yall up on the title since you like using it so much.

No I won't beat up on the Prius. You may want to consider some of those memory pills if you actually have read my post before slamming me. I say again, listen this time, I like the Prius. I will repeat this for you again as well. I wish GM would get on the stick and make a full-blown hybird. We were looking at getting a 5k mile 2005 Prius that was running through the auction is why I found this site to begin with. I'm glad I blew it off now. What if the potential buyer would have been as nice as most (not all but most) of you guys, yikes!

I wanted this post to be more Troll'ish so I can feel better about being called a troll but I just can't get into the full blown troll thing. Maybe baby troll would be better.

Jayman said, "On average we don't kiss up to a certain brand or image."

Yall are blowing the average right out of the water in this thread.

I have driven and owned many diesels through the years. I owned the old 6.2 and 6.5. Ford 7.3 as well as a dmax and a VW Jetta. I am the strongest outsider I know of pushing GM to build the Hybrids. I don't speak for GM, Chevy or anyone other than myself. I don't put down any Hybrid and I don't try to imply the Silverado hybrids is a full blown hybrid.

There are many things I have said and done to promote hybrids before visiting here and I will continue that work despite this beating I’ve taken.

I would sure like it if you fellas slammed me a few more times and then have an admin. lock this train wreck so we can get on with bigger and better things. While you slam me try sprinkling a little fact with the insults if it’s not too much to ask.

On a personal note. I can't believe I just wasted two hours working and researching for this post. I need to get a life. Off to bed I go.

 

you used dealer wholesale prices because as a dealer you can... WE CANT. once again, what is your point?

 

Two hours to look up resale prices on www.kbb.com or www.edmunds.com ? You have got to be joking. It must have taken that long to search for the few aberrations in pricing that support your argument (like the trouble you went through to find a Toyota rental car fleet in the Dutch colony of Curaçao).

Let's use more realistic situations. I hardly know anyone who replaces his car after one year (except for the car rental companies who are so fond of the GM cars). Most people keep their cars for four or five years before trading them in on new ones.

Here are some quick comparisons, from Edmunds, for comparably and typically equipped 6 Cylinder 2000 and 2001 models (I used a Southern California Zip Code for the locale):

Chevrolet Malibu LS (2000/2001):

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  Toyota Camry LE (2000 / 2001):
  • 
    
    According to Edmunds, the Consumer Ratings for the Camry are 8.8 for the 2000 model year and 8.6 for the 2001. For the Malibu it is 6.6 and 7.7.
    
    Even assuming an initial price differential of $3,000 or $4,000, the Camry not only has a better resale value, but it also retains a much higher PERCENTAGE of its initial price.