GM slams possible fuel economy changes

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Jan 9 2007, 12:48 PM) [snapback]373147[/snapback]</div>

If you made a trend line for the ratio of cars/trucks sold the Detroit 3 and Japanese 3 lines would be trending towards an intersection.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 02:42 PM) [snapback]373140[/snapback]</div>

from
Toyota 2006 annual report:
It's not $12 billion on US sales. It's on worldwide sales. 32% in US. 29% in Japan. 12% Europe. 11% Asia. 14% other.
Net Income $11,681,000 Worldwide

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jan 9 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]373134[/snapback]</div>

Wow, a Toyota-funded study that found Toyota was a contributor to the nation's economy. How about a non-biased study to find out what Toyota's steady expansion has cost all Americans in lower standard of living etc.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 02:53 PM) [snapback]373153[/snapback]</div>

Dude, I already said in my original post that some of that was corporate spin. Thanks for clipping that out of your quote.
>>While some of the above is undoubtedly corporate spin, to claim none of this money comes back to the US seems silly.<<

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jan 9 2007, 12:56 PM) [snapback]373156[/snapback]</div>

How does it come back to the US? When Toyota clears off another cornfield and builds a new plant in a TIF district. How else would it come back?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]373160[/snapback]</div>

Well, golly, they're building 15% of the vehicles they sell all over the world here and planning more factories. But I guess that's all done in cornfields. What creeps. We better stop them increasing production here and encourage them to build more factories in Mexico and Asia like US companies.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 12:50 PM) [snapback]373149[/snapback]</div>

I won't deny the percentage of trucks in Japanese sales increasing or the new Toyota truck plant in San Antonio, Texas.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Jan 9 2007, 01:15 PM) [snapback]373173[/snapback]</div>

It will be a very interesting next couple of years in this business. GM especially has drawn a line in the sand and is now finally poised to go at Toyota. I think DCX will spin off Chrysler in the next year and or Ford will try and merge with someone or drastically downsize.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jan 9 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]373169[/snapback]</div>

That's great a whole 15% of the vehicles they sell worldwide are assembled here. Tell me where the expensive components come from on those 15%? Where are all the highend vehicles assembled? Again where does the investment come from and where do the profits go. Do you know what percentage of a lexus is made in North America? How about less than 4%? So every time a $50,000 Lexus is sold, roughly $49,000 is taken out of circulation in the United States. Did you ever have an economics class? Remeber the multiplier effect? Every dollar spent in the Us and how it multiplies throughout the economy and how many times it is taxed among other things. It really does matter where things are made and what the content is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 03:33 PM) [snapback]373186[/snapback]</div>

I'd post a graph but that isn't enabled at the moment for some reason. You can see a chart of their US sold/US built ratio here (it looks about 50/50): http://www.toyota.com/about/usa/usdata/us_sales.html


From The Wall Street Journal, May 11, 2006
"General Motors Corp. is importing Korean-made cars to sell under the Chevy nameplate. Japanese car makers are using American designers for cars being sold in China. Some of the high end luxury BMW "imports" on the road are made in South Carolina. "We don't look at it as an American industry," says Mr. Robinet. "It really is a global industry."

That said, the Japanese manufacturing presence in the U.S. is growing. Foreign-based auto makers in the U.S., led by the Japanese, account for 1.7% of U.S. manufacturing jobs, according to a report by the Center for Automotive Research, Ann Arbor, Mich. After $28 billion in cumulative North America investment — and annual purchases of parts reaching $45 billion or more in recent years — 67% of the Japanese-brand cars now sold in North America are made in North America, according to the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jan 9 2007, 01:57 PM) [snapback]373213[/snapback]</div>

I love that first paragraph, makes it sound so prevalent, how about about 58,000 of the more than 4,000,000 cars and tracks GM sold in the US in 2006. Hardly more than 1%, but the sentence gives the reader a totally different image.
So you are saying that when a toyota is sold instead of a Chevy or a Ford there is no effect, positive or negative on the US economy? I know you want to believe that but do you really?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 02:17 PM) [snapback]373230[/snapback]</div>

I think the point is, it's not as simple as saying buying a GM or Ford is good for the US economy and buying a Japanese car is bad. A Ford can be built with a Mazda engine in Mexico, a Toyota can be styled in California, designed in Detroit, and built in Kentucky. Not saying they all are by any means, like the WSJ says, it's a global industry. Anybody who thinks otherwise is being fooled. Does the money for a Pontiac Vibe stay in America and the money for a Toyota Matrix go to Japan?

Something easier to track is the oil used to power these vehicles - 57% comes from out of the country, and a good deal of that is from OPEC. Oil is our leading cause of national debt. It funds the economic well-being of terrorist-friendly countries, including the construction business that made bin Laden rich. Wasting oil is unpatriotic, and that's where the real issue lies. Not who makes the car and where, but who are you funding every day you drive your vehicle. All in all, I'd rather send money to the Japanese than terrorists.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 04:17 PM) [snapback]373230[/snapback]</div>

Of course I don't believe there's no effect. But neither do I believe, as I thought you implied, that none of the $12-14 bil profit they earned last year will ever come back to the US or that all that profit was earned here.

If GM had made a hybrid, I would have looked at it. Reliability and fuel efficiency were our two main criteria in choosing a Prius (Megan is driving 34 miles back and forth daily through some of Chicago's worst neighborhoods). The research I did through consumer reports all led me to Toyota or Honda, with a brief thought of Mazda.

The charge I can level against Toyota is competence. If GM hadn't dropped the EV1 ball, things would likely be different. (and yes, that's an oversimplification and unscientific opinion, but given the customer goodwill Toyota's reaping from the small # of Prius, maybe not.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Jan 9 2007, 02:37 PM) [snapback]373240[/snapback]</div>

It is not a global industry and it is not a world economy. The US auto market is by far the largest and most lucrative in the world. If it was a global indusrty would foreign companies account for 50% of sales in the US market while the home markets of many of those same foreign competitors are virtually locked up? No the US market(not just in autos) is the dumping ground of the world and we are being duped as US jobs and our standard of living is being pumped overseas and we are paying for everything with IOU's. Does anyone out there understand what is being doen to us in a very systmeatic way by the Chinese and the Japanese?

It is a world economy when they are selling to us, but there are "many things to consider" when we are attempting to sell them anything. We are on the losing side of this equation every month to the tune of 25-40 billion dollars and have been since the early 1970's. Do you think it is a fluke and/or does not matter?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 03:47 PM) [snapback]373246[/snapback]</div>

You can't blame the Japanese and Chinese for our trade laws and policies. What was someone saying about CEO scumbags? There are lobbyists working for Wal Mart that probably destroyed more American jobs than anything the Japanese or Chinese have done.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Jan 9 2007, 02:56 PM) [snapback]373252[/snapback]</div>

I won't go into a Wal-Mart, I agree they are disgusting in what they have done. I do blame the Chinese and the Japanese because of the lobbying and propoganda campaigns they are constantly involved in. Where do you think all of this talk of a global economy comes form anyway? We sell them apples(sometimes and they sell us cars and electronics(Japanese) and everything else(Chinese). Check out how large the Japanes and Chinese delegations are in Washington DC, maybe they are all just here sightseeing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 04:01 PM) [snapback]373254[/snapback]</div>

American-based multinationals, GM included, who were more than happy to move production overseas to increase profits. I'd blame the government, but they are just doing what big business wanted.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Jan 9 2007, 03:19 PM) [snapback]373265[/snapback]</div>

I think you are somewhat right about big-business, I don't think manufacturing multi-nationals were ever for a "global-economy" the way multinationals were in other economic segments.If GM and Ford were in on it, why don't they produce more vehicles outside of North america for import to the US. I think it could be traced more to Wall Street and foreign governments.
Every time tarriffs and free-trade is an issue, CNN, NBC and the like have all these heart-warming stories about Ma and Pa in some little town that are exporting hand-made quilts to China or some bunch of crap to make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside as we are being stolen blind.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 04:01 PM) [snapback]373254[/snapback]</div>

It's also our own fault, for subsidizing agriculture to such a great degree while leaving the manufacturing segments without such support.

So now, we've got lots of cheap beef and other animal products (and the heart disease rates to match) but we're losing our manufacturing base. Pursuing a service economy isn't perhaps the best idea, in my opinion.

We may be creating jobs...but they're minimum wage, unskilled jobs that don't challenge the individual, create loyalty to their employer, or benefit our national knowlege base.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 03:47 PM) [snapback]373246[/snapback]</div>

Ok, where did you come up with that? The firm I contract for would certainly state the Chinese economy will represent the biggest market 10-15 years. Most of the industrial sensors we now design have a default Chinese character set.

A bit over 1 billion people in China, once they get a bit more money they WILL be the "economy." And since virtually all of their industry is brand new, they have built-in competitive advantage.

Lets consider the industrial aspect again, my background. Petrochemicals. They doubled a gas field output with a modern digital bus upgrade:

http://www.easydeltav.com/successstories/petrochina.asp

The worlds largest ethylene cracker was built around two years ago in China, for SECCO. All digital busses from Emerson, running Foundation FieldBus:

http://www.controlglobal.com/articles/2005/525.html

Did you read that little fact how the ethylene cracker went from cold to in-spec in a bit under 11 HOURS?? Comparable refineries in the U.S. need WEEKS. I do this for a living, explain to me how despite RECORD profits in the petroleum sector, refineries in the U.S. still run on 5-15 psi pneumatic control (+50 year old technology), or 4-20 mA discrete analog control (+25 year old technology).

I have no sympathy whatsoever for a company or an industrial sector that manages to pee away record profits and chose to run ancient technologies. Then when the competitive pressures catch up, they're the first ones to whine and complain.

I personally blame the useless Corporate whores - the CEO's and Board of Directors - that run the companies. I also blame decades of government bungling, by Democrats, Republicans, and Neoconservatives alike.