GM says Two Mode Hybrid System Trumps Competition

I would think that the base Matrix 2wd auto is probably closer to the Prius than most that have been compared in this rant. Almost the same weight, hight, HP, and size. An Echo isn't the same class at all. Corrola a bit closer but I think the Matrix is even closer.

 

The data you cited at GreenHybrid is, on its face, of dubious value since we're dealing with self-selected respondents. A cardinal rule of survey research is to _never_ trust results gathered from a self-selected sample. Even so, the median value on the list for second-generation Priuses is about 48 mpg (just about what I'm getting on my current tank of gas, according to the computer, btw).

As for comparison, you are correct that that is the crux of the issue. The ideal comparison would be to an ICE Prius, allowing us to control for the Prius's slippery shape, which has nothing to do with HSD, but which does contribute to its fuel economy performance. Of course, there is no such animal, so that comparison is impossible. That does not render anything "moot," however, since there are other cars of similar size and power.

Remember, please, that we're talking about fuel economy and the hybrid system's effect on such fuel economy. We're not talking about shopping for a new car. The latter question demands that we take a whole host of factors into consideration, and I must agree with you that the Prius is a rather attractive choice, having bought one last month (silver, package 6, love it). The former question is just a matter of comparing cars of similar power-to-weight ratios on the basis of gas mileage.

The best comparison would be to an Echo with 800 lbs of weights distributed throughout the car--similar shape, similar power, similar weight--but I know of no such testing. The next best comparison would be the Corolla. Granted, it's a little smaller inside: rear leg room is 3 inches less, and hip and shoulder room are about an inch or two less, and it might not be available in Salsa red, but those are shopping variables--not fuel economy variables. It weighs a couple of hundred less than the Prius biasing the comparison in its favor, but the Corolla's somewhat larger engine and better performance biases the comparison in the Prius's favor.

It is patently foolish, however, to compare the fuel economy of a 110 hp, 2,900 lb car to that of a 160 hp, 3,300 lb car--still less to that of a 200+ hp car. The "midsize" class is made up entirely of cars having at least 160 hp, with performance characteristics that put the Prius in its place as a compact car, so far as performance is concerned. Yes, it's a rather large and heavy compact car, but the Prius's performance characteristics positively cry out "compact".

By the way, I don't appreciate being called a liar or intellectually dishonest, and I'm having some difficulty interpreting the following in any other way:

"I understand why you chose the Echo to compare, you understand (though claim ignorance) why I chose Camry."

To my mind, that's rather rude.

 

It was never anyone's intention to compare them as whole cars--only as gas sippers. The topic here is not "Which car should I buy?" The topic is "How much does HSD contribute to fuel economy? 25%? 50%? 90%? 100%?"

 

The Echo? I thought I was pretty clear about offering the Corolla as a more appropriate comparison. As for horses, remember that the electric motor is factored into the Prius's hp rating of 110, so it doesn't make much sense to say the electric motor "makes up for" the lack of horsepower. The electric motor's higher torque might make the Prius feel a bet peppier off the line, but its 0-60 and quarter mile times (i.e., its how-well-does-it-get-me-into-the-flow-of-traffic times) and its 45-65 times fit nicely into the compact class:

0-60 -- 10.5 sec
45-65 -- 6.4
Quarter mile -- 18.1

Compare those numbers with the Corolla (auto, 4 cyl):

0-60 -- 9.8
45-65 -- 6.0
Quarter mile -- 17.5

Or the Civic (auto, 4 cyl):

0-60 -- 10.3
45-65 -- 6.3
Quarter mile -- 18.0

 

Your analysis is too full of holes to bother with a detailed reply. You start with incorrect mpg figures and you go on to assume linear relations among variables that are not linearly related.

 

"My conservative adjustments compensate for any non-linearity quite well I believe, but you are free to debate that."

I'm also free to ignore it for the reasons I cited before.

 

"You did not cite any reasons that a rational person ..."

That's precisely the problem, though: your post comparing the Prius to the Echo was not "rational" in the strictest sense of the word: calculable. Next you're going to tell me how many angels can dance on the head of the Prius's shifting knob, with due allowances made for ....

 

"Unless you explain what is wrong with the calculations, they stand un-refuted."

Well you finally got something right. Since, however, I did tell you what was wrong with your "calculations," consider your laughable calculations "refuted."

 

There is actually a non-HSD version of the Prius, sort of. It's the Toyota Allion, which you can read about here...

http://www.batfa.com/new_car_toyota_allion.htm

I have no reputable performance figures on it, but I have seen a 10.5 0-60 time for the 2.0 litre (160hp) version, which might be accurate if the car was towing a Prius during it's test run!

 

Sounds like a real pig--the Corolla's ugly step-sister.

 

Internet troll (click here)

 

Dan... i noticed you have refrained comment on the link i provided.

 

What link?

 

Sorry about that. Never mind that last post. I searched back through the posts and found the link I think you're talking about: the bar chart with "vehicle efficiency" and "fuel efficiency" expressed in percentages. It's still not clear what "vehicle efficiency" is (or "fuel efficiency", for that matter). The chart maker assumes we know what these measures are, but I'm left none the wiser. You?