GM Says 100 to 200 mi on Electric Only in 2-4Yrs

News on Envia...
Court documents reveal DOE-backed Envia isn’t the breakthrough battery startup it appeared — Tech News and Analysis

 

Like the Prius traction pack, most plugin packs have a high/low threshold that never gets accessed - thus they last longer. Tesla learned a valuable lesson regarding that principal when they manufactured their roadster. Too much use of the pack at the low end made the pack suceptable to bricking. That's a mighty costly paper weight. But .... 100-200 mile GM EV range? Gee ... what a lofty goal. Oh wait ... their EV-1 as well as their RAV4-EV circa 1990's had over a 100 miles range ... and those (RAV4-EV's still on the road to this day) use old 1990's Nickel Metal Hydride battery technology. One giant leap backward? Seems light their brag really says much to do about nuthin'.

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For light amusement, read the GM pronouncements from 15 years ago about their fuel cell cars.
That company is *sooo* FOS.

 

Surveys say, in california that is what people want. In texas people seem to want phevs or even more range. I don't know about the rest of the country, but that is a sweet spot.

EV1 was 2 seats and IIRC less than 100 mile range if using the current epa testing. A four+ seater that costs less, recharges quicker, and has double the range is a vast improvement if new battery technology allows them to make it.

 

PC member evnut told me he regularly got over 100 miles, easy. Perhaps you're thinking of the early versions with lead acid batteries? From Wiki:
General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even discounting the EV1, that still leaves the legacy/1990's RAV4-EV. Point being - GM's not saying much. Another way to look at it - if GM's minimum (100-200 mile range - a 100 mile swing?) range is missed by the roughly 10% shortage that the Volt came out with ... that'd leave GM's new EV with 90 miles. Many already do that in the Leaf, with it's paltry 21kWh usable pack. That's saying they'll make something like the Leaf

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No, if evnut got over 100 miles from that he would get a big multiplier on the new one.

Let's look at fuel economy.gov. The ev1 got 91 mpge, on a 26.4 kwh pack, while the 2013 leaf gets 115 mpge on a 24kwh pack.
Compare Side-by-Side
Using the new test the leaf gets 75 mile range. The ev1 got 105, but this is on the old test, as you can see, they did not handicap it with new testing protocols.
Compare Old and New MPG Estimates
The old rav4 ev, 88 mile range. I know nostalgia is strong, but the new rav4 ev with tesla tech inside does much better and hits that 100-200 range.

Now if we are talking apples to apples here, and gm builds something with 4+ seats and a 150 mile as judged by epa testing (more range if evnut is driving it) for less than $30K after tax incentives, that will be a big improvement over the old rav4 ev and ev1. If its a 90 mile range by epa testing, yes that will not be progress, it will be about the same as today's leaf, and won't be far enough for a quick charger network.

Compare Side-by-Side
GM already has the spark, which is a low cost car inbetween that ev1 and the leaf. It gets epa 82 mile aer versus the leaf's 75 mile aer. I don't think gm would be waiting for battery tech to get a measily 10% more range than their current low speced bev. The question is really will we get an epa 150 range with quick charging included for a low enough price in a high enough speced car. The spark is the test bed for that next generation motor and battery. I expect it would be in at least a cruze speced car, but with better aerodynamics.

 

Interesting! Thanks for the link.

Like I said, achieving those goals requires bringing together major improvements to the cathode, anode and electrolyte into one cell. Similar improvements have been claimed or promoted individually. Bringing it all together is the next big step for the latter part of this decade. I still have hope that it can be done and at a favorable price but we're obviously not quite there yet.

Even if the density and pricing goals can be met, there is still cycle and calendar life and power density. Some of the most promising tech on the density side faces challenges in charging and output power. That's why some folks think we may see "hybrid" batteries that combine a smaller high-power pack with a larger capacity storage pack that has power limitations but, on average, can supply the smaller battery. Time will tell.

 

GM missed by a whole lot more than 10%. For years they advertised 40 miles on 8 kWh, when it is actually some 36 miles on 13 kWh. And they only reached the later results by expanding the allowable SOC drop.

 

I doubt GM will even think, "Ouch ... once again, we're over promising and underdelivering". After all, GM (pre and post bankrupt) has become notorious for making claims that don't quite match reality. Maybe the GM buyer doesn't think that's so bad?

That site can't be right, can it? It's claiming the EV1 got over 91kWh per 100 miles! (ie: over 9 miles per kWh). Both EV1 & Nissan Leaf way about 1.5 tons ... and although the EV1 had a lower drag - it can't possibly account for such a number. Plus, if the EV1 actually did 9miles/kWh ... it'd have a range of 180 miles. The wiki #'s seem much closer to reality.
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You got some math and labels wrong there. The EV1 used 0.91kWh/mile. Which is quite bad considering the Leaf and Spark EV would go over 3 miles on the same amount of energy.

It would also mean the EV1 had a range of 30 miles. So something isn't jiving on the EPA site.

 

That does not sound right. IIRC the EV1 was extremely efficient, more in 5 - 10 miles/ kWh range.

 

Maybe the fueleconomy.gov site swapped the mpge value with the kWh/100 miles one. Which would make the EV1 91mpge and 37kWH/100 miles.

 

From wikipedia:

I don't know what testing lead to the claim of 160 miles per 26.4 kWh, but that works out to 6 miles per kWh.

 

They actually did achieve 40 miles on 8 kWh (5 miles per kWh from the battery) if you use the 2011 Volt NEDC rating (52 miles using 10.4 kWh from the battery or 5 miles per kWh). The European brands like VW and BMW throw around NEDC numbers all the time in their PR materials (even Toyota when they unveil new cars like the Prius Plugin at European auto shows). Of course, few people regularly achieve NEDC results but some do (I sometimes do it in nice weather).

I'm not sure why you say "it is actually some 36 miles in 13 kWh". That's not even close to being right. The EPA ratings for the 2013/2014 Volts being sold today have a 38 mile estimated EV range on 10.8 kWh from the battery. That's 3.51 miles per kWh according to EPA.

GM has always talked about a 16 kWh pack so when they initially talked about using 8 kWh of that as the usable capacity that was only using 50% of the pack. They started off very conservatively. Even the Prius Plugin with a smaller pack which gets stressed and charged more often is using about 62%. GM eventually used 65% or 10.4 kWh out of 16 kWh. In 2013 they switched to 10.8 out of 16.5 kWh which is still about 65%. I'm not sure about the exact numbers, but Ford is using something closer to 75% usable capacity in their Energi plugins as is the new Voltec-based Cadillac ELR (still with a Volt-based 16.5 kWh pack).

The Volt's 65% usable capacity is arguably still too conservative compared to other plugin cars but it's good for the pack lifetime. Almost no Volt owners are reliably reporting significant battery range or charge capacity loss unlike LEAF owners. That's true for even some early and relatively high mileage cars.

My Volt is now 3 years old and has 66k miles on it of which 43k were from running on battery charge. I've noticed no real change in range or battery charge capacity yet. When it was new it took 11.5 - 12.0 kWh at 240V and 15A to fully charge in the typical 40F - 60F temperatures this time of year in my garage at home and outside during the day in the SF Bay Area. It still takes that much to charge and I still get the same EV driving range.

 

I believe labels are just reversed for nimh ev1, 91 mpge - 37 kwh/100 miles, this lines up with the lead acid battery 85 mpge - 40 kwh/100 miles.
Compare Side-by-Side

But really as I said I don't trust this number either. Has anyone driven a 75 mile aer 2013 leaf with an ev1 to see how much further one goes. No of course not, most have been crushed. We only have a few rebuilt ev1s like the one at UW. You may email them, but the batteries are from a ford ranger and the motor and transmission are replacements from ballard.