GM is in ICU... news at 11:00

Since I am ignorant on the subject of who invented what, I'm not going to pretend to argue with you about any of these cases. I only ask that you provide a better reference than Wikipedia. You might as well cite the National Enquirer for all the "authority" Wikipedia carries.

 

The major point to this thread appears to be the idea that the reason the GM is doing so badly is because they haven't invested in technology.

While this is a sensible approach to take in a Prius messageboard, it seems to be missing a fundamental point: GM does not make any cars that people can get EXCITED about.

Chevy Cobalt?

Anything from Buick?

Most of Pontiac?

Even when they DO let their designers do something interesting (G6), they often get saddled with such bad quality interiors that they turn off many many folks.

GM seems to be trying to blame everyone but itself for its problems. This downsizing might not be the beginning of the end, it could be a turnaround. I don't know. For the sake of the GM workforce, I hope that it isn't. But GM has to understand that they just simply cannot keep on doing what they are doing. It isn't working.

 

Well, I won’t speak for any other forum member here, but here is the reason I appear “hostile†to you:

First and foremost, from your very first post here, my BS-O-Meter went right off the scale. That itself isn’t always a bad thing, it keeps me on my toes. But after awhile the Conspiracy Theory bs get’s a bit much.

Come on: Toyota as an Evil Empire we are at “war†with? In general the Asians we are at “war†with? In a lot of that undertone I find a racist egotistic attitude that - quite frankly – really pisses me off. But it all depends on the rednecks you hang out with, I suppose you refer to African Americans with the “N†word?

But in the current mess with GM, Asians are a convenient target. They look different than we do, so let’s blame them.

But there is something you should know. I rather doubt you have a college education, but take a tour of any large reputable University, especially the math, engineering, and computer science programs. Notice anything a bit unusual? Take the tour again.

In the above mentioned programs, especially engineering and computer science, it’s mostly “foreign†students in the lecture halls. Those dreaded Asians you refer to in your “war†against them. Want to know why students from China, South Korea, and Japan (Though fewer from Japan the past 5-7 years) are enrolled in “our†schools?

For the most part, it’s because American students rank near the bottom in terms of quality of education and standardized scoring:

http://www.oecd.org/document/13/0,2340,en_...1_1_1_1,00.html

http://www.oecd.org/document/34/0,2340,en_...1_1_1_1,00.html

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/education-c.htm

Maybe because American students spend all their time watching television and playing video games. But I’m sure that is also the fault of the Asians.

For whatever reason, you can not or will not see that GM is run by a bunch of clueless boobs. These clueless boobs, I’ll stop just short of calling them thieves and scam artists, have run GM into the ground. They bet the wad on gas guzzling - but high-margin - pickups and SUV’s, and they lost the wad. Welcome to Lost Wages.

I suppose there are many folks out there who sincerely believe that it’s the American Dream to drive an expensive gas guzzling pickup or SUV. That the recent high gas prices were an evil Communist plot to overthrow their lifestyle. I think you had better step back and see the Big Picture.

The record huge balance of trade deficits are to be blamed on you, not on Japan or South Korea or Canada or China. In the United States, around 50% of petroleum resources are used for transportation, which is a crime. That really wouldn’t matter if the U.S. was self-sufficient in petroleum, but currently 52% of petroleum is imported.

A lot of that petroleum used to come from unstable crackpot dictatorships in the Mid East and a more recent “friend†Venezuela. Kind of funny (Both ha-ha and Ironic) when Chavez claimed he couldn’t increase pumping capacity, that the fields were at plateau, and suddenly a major American religious icon calls for his execution.

Of course you could always “expect†more petroleum from Canada, especially at Loss Leader pricing. But why should Canada pump dry every oil field just to satisfy the trend of subsidized gasoline to run gas guzzlers?

I’m a Dual Citizen (Canadian and American) and on the matter of trade with the U.S., I’m firmly on the side of Canada. Whether it’s energy, cattle, softwood lumber, etc, Canada has received a bum deal and has been treated quite poorly. No wonder the Canadian government allowed a Chinese oil company to buy up the rights in the Alberta Tar Sands.

So if you feel it is your “right†to act like a bully, don’t be surprised if you stumble. I feel sorry for the UAW members who will lose their jobs and benefits, but don’t blame a Toyota driver. Blame the incompetent fools who run GM.

On the topic of benefits, a lot of the schmaltz from the 90’s has now proven to be a charade. Remember the Dot Com thing? That cost the economy hundreds of billions, most of it pure fraud. Remember Enron, Comcast, Adelphia, etc? Nothing but a Ponzi Scheme and fraud. So much for benefits, they’re wiped out.

How were companies allowed to erase pension and benefit funds that the workers PAID INTO? These workers had source deductions for those generous benefits, and many of the pension/benefit funds are now upside down. Maybe you think it’s ok for The General to erase those generous benefits, but I don’t. The old saying: follow the money.

You appear to have placed a great deal of blame on Asians for all the current economic woes. I think some of that is true, the Asian car companies could have probably rode out the pickup/SUV craze without stooping so low as to join it.

Did Toyota respond to the pickup and SUV craze by producing such vehicles? Yes, they did, smart marketing. But they lost a LOT of respect in my eye by doing so. Still, Toyota does offer many desirable economical cars to chose from: Echo sedan and hatchback (Within the last month replaced by the Yaris), and everybody’s favorite the Corolla.

Honda was about the last holdout until the Ridgeline. I’ve always had a great deal of respect for Honda as they have proven they know how to produce small economical cars that don’t leave you with a bad taste in your mouth.

And what does The General offer in economical cars? I’ve been forced to rent plenty of Cavaliers to know I wouldn’t touch one. Their fuel economy isn’t that hot either. The General does now offer the Aveo, conveniently produced by Daewoo in South Korea. But it DOES have a Chevy badge on it, so that is okey.

I also am getting really sick and tired of your loaded dialog “war†and “fight.†Sort of like that “you’re with us or against us†BS rhetoric that has served to isolate you from the rest of the world. I don’t think you realize or care just how many people you offend in your own country, and how many folks you offend outside of America, with that sort of dialog.

So grow up and get serious. If you truly are a thirty-something Chevy dealer, you have the mind of a disenfranchised 17 year old. Get help.

 

Dan:

Actually a lot of folks like Wikipedia. But if you want more facts, feel free to Google the terms I used in that post. For example, for ABS:

http://www.1bx.com/en/Antiblockiersystem.htm

http://blog.thecar.com.my/2005/11/13/tiger...-break-turns-25

http://www.bosch-presse.de/TBWebDB/de-DE/P...earch=0&id=2517

And many others, some in German. If you wish I can provide detailed links but they would go on for pages just for "ABS"

To have an individual state that The General either innovated or first offered these technologies is patently false. A quick Google will uncover it.

jay

 

The General Motors EV1 sounds like a PERFECT car for her commute.

Oh, wait, The General rounded up all of them and crushed them. Never mind.

 

Nope, here is your original post:

"Toyota has always come up with cutting edge technologies: traction control, anti-lock brakes, airbags, stability controls, cruch zones, displacement on demand, satellite radio, onstar etc.......Oh wait that was GM. Couldn't be could it?"

You said "come up with." That is generally taken as invent or innovate.

Don't put words in MY mouth son.

 

The date went fine too. We ended up back at my place

 

You are a most pompous poster. So if I question the economic motives of certain countries that makes me a racist? Son, maybe you need to sit in on a real high-powered economic discussion at GM or Toyota? To call you naive would let you off way too easy.

You love to complain about the US economic treatment of Canada but will not realize that is exactly the way much of the rest of the world treats the US on economic matters. The US is the worlds great dumping ground for all kinds of products. Or maybe you will explain the Us trade deficit as nothing more than 'ponzi' accounting. Keep insulting me, you are destroying my self-confidence.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but where I live 1 out of 2 vehicles or more on the road are either SUV's,Trucks or Mini Van's. It seems to me GM, Ford, and everyone else are only making what most of the people want. Now that the fuel prices have gone up people are looking for more efficient cars. GM & Ford will regroup, and who knows maybe something good might come out of this. In the meantime, we have our Prius to be happy for.

 

malorn, I don't blame the dealerships for selling the SUV's, when your other choice for families is the uplander, what do you expect? You push the customer into whatever has the highest margin and greatest appeal.

We expect you'll take pleasure in selling Siennas when you get your Toyota dealership. The Limited is really a spectacular vehicle.

Can you blame someone for not wanting an Aveo when the Prius is on the market? The HHR is the only appealing car that chevy offers. (A little late to market, but at least it's here).

Yes, I will concede that GM has brought many innovations to market. Unfortunately, they still screw them up, because they don't go full-fledged into the technology. Diesel in the 80s? 8-6-4? EV1? Single Channel ABS? Throttle body fuel-injection? And now, the BAS hybrid.

Not to mention they still haven't gotten around to correcting some idiotic design issues in their vehicles. For example, try rebuilding a differential in a Tundra. Then do one in a Silverado. Next, change the rear main seal in the Tundra. Then, do it in the Silverado. You will see the beauty in the design that the Toyota has, and the advantage this offers in assembly, reliability, and serviceability.

Seriously, dropping the crank to change a rear main is idiotic. Having no drain plug on the differential is idiotic. The list goes on. The problem is not that GM doesn't know better, it's just that they operate in crisis mode and never get around to the next iteration, the next microimprovement that adds up to a better product over time.

A new GM car is a nothing more than a dent-free version of the GM car you already own. They take the "improved" out of new and improved. (It's a cost cutting measure).

My aunt was considering a Yukon XL until she drove the Sienna, traded in her Pontiac Montana and never looked back.

malorn, I suspect you will get your Toyota dealership and never look back.

Nate

 

Nate, I agree with most of what you have said. I think that GM has tried to be too many things to too many people. There have been many unbelievably bad decision made on the corporate level over the last 25 years. I am hopeful that the corner will be turned soon. At least in the near-term, I am actually more worried about the future of our Ford franchise, their poor decisons just keep coming, with no end in sight. We should complete the toyota deal in the next month, but my heart will never be with Toyota.

 

don't feed the troll.....

 

Sigh... as much as we'd all like all of the Asian nations to submit to the US and our economy and be all about just supporting our economy, Japan included, they are NOT our servant nations...

As much as we want it, America is not an Empire... although we certainly seem to have aspirations of Empire...

The fact is that China and Japan have their own economic interest in mind, as well as they should! We do the same thing... that's business.

You keep talking about an economic war with Asia... it's not a war, it's business as usual. If you don't like it, then your beef shouldn't be with Asia and it's big corporations, but with the concept of global capitalism in general

 

he will just tell you that he is not fond of globalization but... you know the rest. he just repeats himself. TOYOTA = EVIL, CONSPIRACY, LIARS, blah blah blah, buy American it's good for you, wave a flag, preferably a large one...

 

I couldn’t have put this any better… Windstrings, you put this into words that express my very own feelings. “And aren't we all brothers?.†So true, we are all family it really doesn’t matter. Things are changing and I believe for the good. We as Americans need to wake up and realize that we are all the same. We are spoon fed ideas and are forced to believe that bigger is just better period. I think quite a few folks are in denial. I once was proud to live in a country that back in the day leaded so many industries but we have truly fallen behind. When it come to making an automobile, we need to not force bigger, badder, but smarter. If we build it, they will buy it. Heck we could probably slap some more, good’ol over-played U.S. propaganda on a Ford hybrid ( or other alternative ) and it’ll sell!

It would be really cool if the major car companies in the world would just work together for world benefit, but money is involved so it gets complicated. Maybe this is a good thing for GM? Didn’t Ford buy hybrid 1 technology from Toyota? Why re-invent the wheel, swallow our pride and work together! Poooof, okay back to reality:-}

 

Ford developed their own hybrid technology separately of Toyota, but when it became clear that Ford's hybrid drive was very similar in theory and operation to Toyota's, Ford negotiated to share Toyota's patent to get past any licensing issue. In return Ford shared some patents with it's new diesel technology.

 

I'm reminded of a video I once saw about paradigms. The video said the Swiss were very reluctant to accept a quartz movement because it didn't fit the paradigm of what a watch should be. According to The History of the Digital Watch,

After years of research, the Swiss viewed quartz as a fad that would pass, reckoning erroneously that their mechanical excellence would see them survive as kings of the heap; it was poor judgement that would eventually lead to the demise of some companies.

Although my family and I have never owned a GM car, I feel very sorry for the workers at GM.

 

Me too... just to recap: GM cuts 20,000 jobs, GM offers "Employee Pricing" and sells a TON of cars, GM cuts 30,000 jobs and closes a bunch of plants.

Looks like the workers are getting screwed bad.
I feel like it's a tough predicatment, because you don't want to support a corporation that's shafting it's employees, nor do you want to do those employees any more harm by shunning their company. In the end I believe you have to do what is right and stay away from GM until they get new management that can right the ship. Supporting them now would be an endorsement of the way they've acted towards their employees.