GM Hybrid to Undercut Prius

NuShrike,

Even Toyota admits there is a fairly steep premium for Hybrid Vehicles. I'll do my best to find the article, which I believe was at www.greencarcongress.com, but the President of Toyota himself, Mr Katsuaki Watanabe stated that there was approximately a $4000 price premium for the hybrid vehicle. That is where I got my value from. I DO NOT NOW, NOR HAVE I EVER blindly parroted the media, and I don't start to plan to in the furure. You can dispute the value, but unless the president of Toyota is BS'ing us, I would think he would be considered a fairly reliable source. To be more specific about the article, Mr Watanabe stated this in the context that he has given direction to his engineers to cut this premium in half by about 2010, though my memory is a little foggy on the exect date he gave.

You also responded to my email excoriating me for using the term REAL MPG for a Hybrid. Once again, I didn't pull a number out of my arse. Check out this website:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage...d&sort=distance
At the time of this post, 1,119 vehicles were on this database, with an average of 48.1 MPG. That, IMHO constitutes the real MPG of that vehicle under multiple and varied driving conditions.

Furthermore, the Civic LX comes with 4 wheel anti-lock brakes and side airbags, just look at the specs of the DX model, and you will see them there. I didn't take into acount the alloy wheels to be honest, but I still beleive that the HCH compares more closely to the LX model then the EX. Relative to the HCH, the EX includes, 4-wheel disk brakes, moonroof, remote entry system, steering wheel mounting controls etc.

Anyway, I allowed myself to get drawn off topic. The use of the HCH vs LX was just an example. The POINT I was trying to make is that I think GM or FOrd could develop a car with about a 30% increase in efficiency with a pricepoint considerably lower then that of the Prius. Yes, I do agree with most people that Ford and primarily GM will find a way to F**K up the process and make a craptacular vehicle rather then one that could truly compete with Honda and Toyota. I was just giving an example of technologies that could, with some more research and hard work, compete with a full hybrid at half or less of the cost.

And just to let everyone know, I'm by no means anti-hybrid. The reason I'm on this website is that I'm seriously considering buying a Prius, and for the most part reading this site has been very informative. The purpose of my post was to point out that the majority of the American populace can not afford to go out and buy a '06 package #6 for $26-$27k, and I was postulating that there should be a way to provide 40+ MPG for less then 20 grand.

Peace,
Cosmo

 

Once again, there's no reason why Toyota or Honda can't apply the same technologies that you postulate can be applied to "conventional" vehicles and get MUCH better mileage than they do now. Honda already has implemented a lot of cool stuff into their engine designs for the Civic Hybrid.

You are chasing a moving target. So suppose GM can come up with a cheap car that gets 43 MPG that's not a hybrid... and suppose it takes them 2 to 3 years to complete development of the technologies for this car... what's not to say that Toyota and Honda won't have the Prius or the Civic doing 55 or 60 or even 70 MPG in real world miles using the same technologies?

GM can try to make a car with 30% better efficiency, but the Prius isn't sitting still. In a few years it will be completely refreshed, and GM won't be competing with my 2nd generation Prius, but a 3rd generation one... And who's not to say that Toyota's push to make their hybrids more affordable won't reduce the price of the Prius so that it's the same price as the GM vehicle that only provides the mileage of a 2001 Prius for the same price as a new 2008 prius in 2008?

And riddle me this : is GM planning on doing ANYTHING to address the emissions concerns of their vehicles?! Full hybrids potentially improve emissions dramatically... weak hybrids generally don't... that's why the Civic Hybrid, the Prius, and the Escape Hybrid are all AT-PZEV...

 

I haven't commented for some time but had to chime in on this topic.

I know that everything Toyota says and does is somehow sacred to most of you, but don't you think that someday Toyota will falter? Remember 25 years ago the US government was having serious discussions about breaking up Chevrolet, Pontiac, etc.
For the first time in my memory folks in the industry are talking about Toyota in less than golden terms. Usually over-confidence is the trigger for a decline. If that happens, I will look forward to reading the comments on here if GM decides to build a hybrid as great as they currently build suv's.
Remember after all the years of problems and bad press etc, they are still the largest vehicle seller in the US and the World.

 

John:

:lol:

Too funny. I recommend the Heimlich

jay

 

I'll eat my prius when GM has a competative product.

 

That's fine if they show that they are committed to what hybrid technology is really about...

...meaning that they have to show their commitment to more than just incrementally better MPG, but also better emissions.

Listening to Lutz, and some of the other boneheads, they don't get that. But that being said, GM has a long way to go, both from a positioning of their business, and technologically.

My comment was simply that it is clear to everybody that GM has a very late start to the hybrid game, and they will need to work extra extra hard to catch up... and to turn around the attitude of their company toward hybrids.

It doesn't matter to me, either Toyota or GM...

 

Let me just speak for everyone hear and say that Toyota will NEVER falter and to say otherwise is blasphemy. :lol:

Seriously, I'm confused about malorn's "over-confidence" idea regarding Toyota...is he saying that Toyota as a company is over-confident? Or we as buyers of the car are over-confident? I don't understand because when he says that people in the industry are speaking about Toyota in "less than golden terms" that usually means a lack of confidence.
And speaking of a "lack of confidence" is what I think this topic was mostly about--but not in Toyota confidence but a lack of confidence in GM's ability to deliver on a superior hybrid vehicle. How would Toyota's perceived over-confidence in itself affect GM's ability to deliver a great hybrid vehicle?
Of course this whole topic is just speculation and the best speculators do so based on the past and present knowledge. Personally, I'd weigh more on Toyota's experience with 2 generations of existing successful hybrid vehicles than GM's overall higher volume sales figures.
Again, who knows what the future holds? Maybe all the leadership at Toyota will go nuts and dump all the hybrids and focus all efforts on an SUV-V8-powered-ICE-only fleet of vehicles...anything is possible but that seems more likely to become a GM strategy than Toyota's. Fact of the present matter is that GM is simply trailing in the hybrid development arena so they are the longshot right now. I don't think I'll be buying any "GM Future Hybrid Lotto Tickets" anytime soon.

 

I found this info on GM's website on their hybrid to come.
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_te...rn_vue_bas.html
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_te...id_brochure.pdf
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_te...rid_082505.html
Despite the words used, it doesn't seem all that advanced. It talks about regenerative braking but I don't see how that works in. Also, not sure of the efficiency of going from DC to 3-phase AC to drive the electric motor...maybe an electrical engineer out there can say something about that.
Overall, what makes all of that meaningless at this point is there is not even an estimated range of expected fuel economy or emissions levels. May as well show a picture of the advanced Electro-Hyperlux Rubber Band Helix Hybrid System and say "GM engineers developed the Saturn hybrid to deliver improved fuel economy."

 

But this is still a blind parrot of "The Toyota PR guy did state there's a premium". But, I'm asking YOU where that premium is because the actual numbers don't show it when one gets down and crawl around the nits.

I didn't remember, nor can I see, making a point about MPG with you. Where did I do that?

From Kelly Blue Book (the link might break) the 2005 LX manual (w/o airbags), which I did state the exact price and state as source, has no anti-lock brakes. Edmunds, confirms it with me. I also browsed the DX and EX models to be sure I was looking in the right section and page, and none of the DX models have anti-lock brakes. In my 9 year Civic history, none of the Civic models ever had anti-lock brakes in the USA except for the Si and possibly the EX models.

My point of no-substantiated premium still stands.

It would help if you didn't make claims that parroted numbers that have yet to show there's a real premium for the customer. The only other possibility for a premium is that Toyota is eating some of the parts costs for us with thinner margins. This business tactic has worked reasonably well in the console market especially when the company is already flush in cash. So, getting a hybrid is much like getting a V6, SUV, or leather. It's about stepping up and satisfaction, not about it's a premium.

But again, you're subtly bringing back that the Prius has a premium for being a hybrid rather than it's just a better vehicle build. Because yes the HSD can be placed into something like a Corolla without: the aluminum hood/hatch, alloy wheels, everything airbags, fancy display, and still get that 30% efficiency, and at half or less of a cost than the Prius.

Why play games with the customer and go half with patched-in technology that doesn't actually give that much more MPG gain because it cannot support those gains (does it have a traction battery to stick that regenerated braking energy?) rather than going full with already proven when there's not much of a price difference nor unconventional effort? Also, by the time GM brings out their half-way technology won't the usual cost-lowering of current full-hybrid tech just undercut GM and make GM's effort look moot?

The only reason I see that GM can't go full-hybrid without a customer premium is not because the technology itself will add that much more, but because they're starting from square one for the technology itself again. Ford should be able to drop their already developed hybrid-technology into any of their lower-end cars without bumping costs much, and it can only get cheaper. The thing that's probably slowing all of this is actually parts availability, and retooling.

Well, package #1 is 20K; the 2006 Civic Hybrid is ~20K also. Is that still too much?

One can also just get a smaller car, or one of the older small import cars that used to get closer to 50MPG, due to the way physics works.. bigger sucks more energy. How about a used Gen-1 Prius, Civic HX (close to 40MPG), used Civic Hybrid?

If the question is how to get a new car to that level without being a hybrid, go for super efficient cars such as the Civic HX. How can American companies do it? They had 15 years to develop the technology - get with the program; maybe if we waited another 10 years, or just wait for Toyota/Honda to have enough supply to expand into their lower end models.

 

So where does the fact that the average new car costs $30K figure in here? Because it seems to me that would indicate the Prius is below the "average" price people are paying anyway.

And if you want to go that route, the majority of the American populace can't afford to go out and buy a new car in the first place. There are (few, but some) used hybrids out there. Of everyone my husband and I know (I'm 23 and he's 27) we are the only ones who have purchased (not leased) a new vehicle. With the exception of my stepdad, but he's a megalomaniacal ****head who lives in his own world and doesn't count anyway.

 

Here's an important difference...

If you're saying that GM will do hybrids better than Toyota, Honda, or Ford, that's wishful thinking...

If you're saying that Toyota, Honda, or Ford will make better hybrids and maintain their lead... that's grounded in the current realities...

 

Well you can relax as although Toyota is a global company..they are buiding here and employing thousands of American workers and boosting the american economy!.... GM has resorted to building in Korea and China! :lol:

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/special/na2003/na2003.html
http://www.toyota.com/about/news/manufactu...7-1-engine.html

Where to you figure "Daewoo" comes from?
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...31/b3945056.htm

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=654&vf=1

GM's lack of quality is world renown!... they are famous for all the wrong reasons!

I hope that doesn't break your heart to see they are "traitors"?

 

GM needs to start a new technology!.... they will always be playing catchup with this forever unless they take a higher road... they are too far behind!