GM Hybrid to Undercut Prius

There's still plenty of opportunities for Ford to mess that up too...

But, yes... good for Ford so far on their first steps toward more efficient cars... so far.

 

.....GM Hybrid to Undercut Prius -

YES - probably you will experience this when it comes to reliablility as well.....

 

You're either wrong or dreaming about a few points here.

"essentially the same features" : I highly doubt either Ford or GM will even come close to the feature set of the Prius... a navigation system, bluetooth, SKS... all features that would come in "luxury" cars... no way they'll be able to undercut the Prius by $4000 if they include all of those features.

5 MPG or less than what the Prius REALLY gets? I have 52.9 MPG on my tank of 390 miles right now... and I'd say that's real world driving...

Please... don't pretend like it's a universal truth that Toyota lies about their mileage and that it's *REALLY* only in the 30s or 40s... it's easy to get over 50 MPG in the Prius if you do it right, so if GM wants to make this hypothetical, they need to get up into the high 40s, not the high 30s.

The Prius is it's own special beast... GM will try to make cheap (and i mean that in the most derogatory way) hybrids that get marginally better mileage, but they will not challenge the Prius.

And I'll bring up more points... has GM committed to making their hybrids not only more fuel efficient, but also CLEANER too?

Honda's Civic Hybrid, Toyota's Prius, and Ford's Escape/Mariner Hybrid all achieve AT-PZEV, SULEV II... that's a high standard to live up to. Will GMs weak hybrids do anything to address emissions?

 

The Mariner Hybrid comes with a Nav and Bluetooth, and it's about 15K less than the RX400 hybrid, and 6K less than the Highlander Hybrid (and neither the Lexu$ or Toyota have SKS, and neither are PZEV like the Mariner).

So I think Ford at least competes quite well with features.

 

Price isn't the only thing. One reason Ford NEEDS to compete using price as a point, is because they can't point to reliability. The prius was my first foreign car, so I'm not Pro-Toyota. But I can't deny what my experience tells me - They make more reliable cars.

And what are you basing your pricing on? The Mariner is $29k MSRP and Highlander $33k base prices. The Lexus is $48k. So it's really a $19k difference between Lexus and Mariner and a $4k difference between highlander. Keep in mind, these are all base prices, so options would vary. At those prices, Mariner and Highlander would be without NAV.

 

Well, I'd compare the 26K Escape Hybrid to the 33K HiHy... and the Mariner is only a 4WD, so you'd have to compare that to the 36K HiHy 4WD.

Altho I hear you can get a good discount on the HiHy and RX400... apparently they're not selling all that well for some reason.

And as for reliability... I've never owned a Ford. But my Prius has died twice. Go figure.

 

Evan - Apparently few people took your advice....Toyota stock jumped $3.56 just today!
I've been following GM's woes lately and I predict that by next spring, there will no longer be a Pontiac or Saturn division at GM. Both have been tremendous money-losers for the last several years and must be cut if GM is to avoid bankruptcy, if even that can save it. If Delphi workers strike, the demise of GM will come even sooner. What a shame that such a large company with so many talented people has such a twisted management structure that nothing can get done.

I wonder how many folks will even consider a GM product if they go bankrupt. Some places are still trying to unload left over Oldsmobiles. Can you imagine what the car industry will have to deal with? Surely, there will be bad times for all of America when this happens - and all because of a few upper management types who will be sure to have the 'golden parachutes' packed and ready.

 

I guess the point I'd make would be: I wouldn't trust GM to build my next "normal" automobile -- much less a hybrid.

Ford, though, is another matter. I like several of their cars very much (particularly if you include Mazda and Volvo), and I think they did some damn good work in the Explorer hybrid. (Though I have no interest in an SUV.)

 

Well... if the HiHy and the RX400 aren't selling well, neither is the Ford Escape Hybrid...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/to...ybrid.html#more

Highlander and Lexus are down 14% and 10% respectively, but the Escape Hybrid is down a whopping 32%...

Toyota still sells more Highlanders and Lexus rx400h than Ford sells Escape Hybrids.

I consider the Escape and the Mariner a different category than the Highlander and the RX... different sized vehicles, different kinds of engines... so it's not necessarily a fair comparison to either the Ford or the Toyota or the Lexus...

 

Jack06, I think your knowledge of GM vehicles is quite limited. I happen to own a 2003 Cadillac Escalade with 44,000 miles on it and have never had any problems with it. Its only been in the shop for oil changes and check ups. I also own a 1994 Chevrolet Astro Van with 82,000 miles and have had no problems with this vehicle either.

The Escalade might be a gas hog, but it is very reliable. My family of seven enjoy the Escalade immensely.

 

Ford's hybrid efforts are encouraging but they do have the worst fleet MPG of the major manufactuers as I recall.

 

First of all, the Prius, hybrid Escape and Hybrid Civic are basically sold as fast as they can be made. The supply of batteries or the willingness of the makers are the chief supply constraints. Yes, the Prius ages less on the lot then the Escape but all three basically VANISH off the lots compared to most standard cars. There are end of year manufacturing fluctuations going on for all three of these vehicles. But none of them are gathering dust on the lot.

Both the Civic and the Escape are now available with discounts below MSRP, though not in all areas. Edmunds forum users do report $1000 or so off both models.

The GM products are a good start but of course TWO generations behind the others. The only way I would think they were GREAT would be if they totally replaced the models with these new BAS systems, not just had it as an option. That would be a good enviromental gesture GM who otherwise has nothing to speak of.

Stocks (just my opinion)
I shorted GM down $3 (when it above $25), to chicken to short at the current levels. I feel while Toyota is the best auto maker its stock is currently 'fully valued'. Honda is the current undervalued automaker. The new Civic system is cheaper for them to make <not that its better, its not> and they can make it in higher volume.

 

This is just another example of brainwashing and misinformation.

There IS NO price premium, esp in the $4-5K range. That's been proven many times when you compare a similarly equipped conventional car of the same class to the hybrid version. Prius to hi-end Camry/Accord is same price, and the Prius ends up being lighter too.

Why don't you prove this premium instead of assuming it like the rest of the lemming reporters.

 

What currently being used in hybrids isn't conventional technology and why can't the ones not being used currently be incorporated into a hybrid system also?

 

What I can find is a Civic LX manual @ 32/38mpg [kbb.com] $15,029
vs
a Civic Hybrid manual @ 46/51 mpg [kbb.com] $20,041

The LX manual is missing: 4 wheel anti-lock brakes, side airbags, alloy wheels. You better factor that into the "hybrid premium".

If you removed those from the Hybrid, the difference would probably be reduced to ~$2K or so, and that's not counting the different electronics/displays/stereio inside.

Then you factor in the $2K tax deduction/credit, and you got your poor man's hybrid already and more at about $0 difference.

Then, Honda could mate the HCCI to the hybrid system, and get even more of a boost. Isn't this the obvious direction?

 

John:

Remember how quickly the Enron trainwreck happened? Up until Enron went belly up, many folks actually believed that crushing debt was Good, cooking the books was Good, and a Ponzi Scheme was Good. They even bet their life savings.

Sad thing is, folks have already forgotten Enron, and appear oblivious to GM et al. So I doubt folks will learn from this.

Well, that is the crux of the situation, isn't it? Sadly the Sheeple are oblivious.

jay

 

I happen to have been unfortunate enough to own a 2000 GMC Sierra SLT 4x4 which I finally sold in 2004 to buy my Prius. I'm happy to hear your Escalade has been so reliable.

Just keep an eye on your rear pinion seal, the slide pins for the rear disk brakes, the lever arm for the rear drum-in-hat parking brake, and the AutoTrak mode select cluster.

Oh wait a minute, the Escalade has a single speed all-wheel-drive, right? Lucky you, no mode select cluster to quit and display SERVICE 4WD in scary amber letters.

 

Once you stop questioning and become a Sheeple, it's over quickly.
Sadly the Sheeple are oblivious.

Jay:

Baaaa(rf), Baaaaaaaaaa(rf), Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa(rf)
I'm TRYING, but something keeps getting stuck in my craw!
Am I oblivious yet?