Global Warming is really starting to run out of gas

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Oct 28 2007, 05:39 PM) [snapback]531671[/snapback]</div>

I can certainly tell your government schooled. Liberal to the last. When confronted with a little common sense and a call for thought you attack. It's no wonder why more and more people are questioning Global Warming. As a budding scientist you need to check to see what your standing in to make you bud. Grow up and discus instead of attacking. Capitalist pigs raping our resources for profit; get real! Your sick.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BuddyL @ Oct 30 2007, 04:37 PM) [snapback]532643[/snapback]</div>

Whoa, Buddy, F8L is one of the most considerate ones on this board and quite learned.

He's not sick in the least. You happen to be wrong now on two counts.

 

i think that the last few posts by F8L were born of frustration from trying to enlighten a few people here and i dont blame him. after several dozen posts attempting to shed some light on a very serious problem and getting some pretty ridiculous responses, he has really made no headway.

to make sweeping generalizations about someone over a single post is probably not a good idea. he brings a lot to this forum, so dont bash him for being frustrated. i for one, completely understand his position as i feel pretty much the same way.

 

I feel as frustrated as F8L too. I only hope that everyone else that ever reads the thread learns something even if the deniers never do..

 

Changes are occurring quite rapidly. Next summer is going to be scary the effects in Canada's upper northern regions.

Tomorrow at Halloween night, weather announced to be clear at 16c, here in Montreal.

It's all people are talking about, and of course last Monday morning, how everyone is enjoying the extra long golf season.

.
Major Source of Atmospheric Methane Identified Near Arctic Lakes
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/10/so...thane_spike.php

Perhaps a picture ???????

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fibb222 @ Oct 30 2007, 07:50 PM) [snapback]532648[/snapback]</div>

When he starts to call people Capitist Pigs he has given up his right to be called "most considerate" no matter how frustrated he is. Lets just say I choose to disagree for the present with the conclusions of the Global Warming crowd.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BuddyL @ Oct 30 2007, 05:58 PM) [snapback]532673[/snapback]</div>

Study the system enough and if you end up not disgusted then I'd ask that you do a little soul searching and ask yourself if profitting off of the reduction in well being of others is ethical. Serisouly though, the amount of degredation that is thrust upon the ecosystems and people of the world for pure profit is quite astounding. Have you really looked into it? I have and I deal with it on a near daily basis. How well versed are you in our in WTO, World Bank, etc? It is scary system we live in and it is only getting worse due to the vast amounts of money being dumped into campaign coffers and with the appointment of CEOs into governmental postions. Some of my views are indeed liberal yet some could be considered conservative by Edmund Burke yet I tend to side with Thomas Jefferson the most. I find your reference to my "government" schooling odd. Who else was I supposed to be schooled by, our wonderful media? No, I choose to suppliment my government schooling with my own research in books and in the field with specialists. I realize I have a lot to learn yet I also realize how little many others truely know. It's ok to have opinions on a subject but when you have no evidence to back those opinions up it makes for a weak case in my book. I highly recommend listen to or reading David Korten's book "The Great Turning". I will list his credentials at the bottom of this post due to length. Here is an interview based on one of his books.

Fibb and Dave,

Thank you guys for your comments. They really hit home and made me feel wonderful. It is at times like this that I wish I could retract the harshness in my posts and I feel ashamed for my outburst. It is as you say, I reacted to seeing the same arguments over and over again and it feels like no one is listen when we talk. That doesn't really excuse my tone so I'll just accept that I reacted poorly. Thank you booth for the kind words.


David Korten's Bio:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fibb222 @ Oct 30 2007, 07:09 PM) [snapback]532656[/snapback]</div>

Me three.

 

I own two cars and a house and a business. Yes I am a capitalist pig, but an eco-conscious / eco-aware one. My family, my business, are not carbon neutral.

B)

87% METHANE SPIKE (if the frozen North melts)</span>

That's a lot of manure that is hitting the fan big time.




.

 

Another little factoid you might prefer not to know is that methane is about 25 times more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2.

All the CO2 to date is merely a catalyst to release the methane. :huh:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mark Derail @ Oct 30 2007, 09:27 PM) [snapback]532758[/snapback]</div>

Nah, we've gone over methane and methane clathrates recently. Some climatologists (Peter Cox) are worried and others seem not to be (Gavin Schmidt). I'm dealthy afraid of it because I know the part they played in mass extinction 250mya (Permian extinction). I'm also studying the effects of CO2 in ocean environments and part of that study involves methan hydrates (clathrates). So some in here are worried, some are not. lol

 

The mass extinction is well under way. Evolution's working nicely, humans win the Darwin award, and the 10% of life that survives will start over. Maybe intelligence will develop the next time around.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Oct 30 2007, 09:45 PM) [snapback]532766[/snapback]</div>

I don't know any prominent biologists that will disagree with you. 6th Mass extinction

Well, about mass extinction. Thee are enough people (especially indigenous) left that will survive anything short of a KT extinction scenario that happens more abruptly.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Oct 30 2007, 07:05 PM) [snapback]532704[/snapback]</div>

I too thought F8L was a little over the top with the whole capitalist pigs thingy, but hey, he is a good guy even though I know he and I don't always see eye to eye on everything. <_< I for one am more than willing to forgo judgment on this one comment since the vast bulk of his comments are constructive and quite considerate.

I know he has some strong feelings regarding capitalism. In my view, capitalism, although flawed in the respects he notes, seems to be the one system that most consistently is able to deliver humankind from poverty, disease, and misery. Not always, and not always perfectly - but I would argue most consistently. Now, TO WHAT it delivers us is entirely another question!

But certainly capitalism has enabled a system that affords us the luxury of frittering away the hours on trivial pursuits such as PriusChat rather than a life of scrounging dung piles for scraps of undigested food. :lol:

 

Global warming might be a positive. The last time it happened on Earth, it was called the Roman warming period. They grew grapes in England and Greenland was green! The Vikings had farms and communities on Greenland.

Some will lose and others will win. Perhaps something good will finally come from Canada--grapes maybe?

We asked a Sierra Club leader the other day at a barbecue (with lots of smoke) about the Roman warming; the 1500 year warming/cooling cycle; and about Mars and Neptune also experiencing global warming. He had no answer. He sounded more like a religous zealot than the scientist he claimed to be.

Could it be related to solar wind deflecting cosmic rays that cause less cloud formation?

When ice in water melts, the water level stays the same. When the Earth is warmer, there is more percipitation and it snows more at the poles. If it snows over the South Pole, which is over land, the water level gets lower.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rocket @ Oct 30 2007, 11:17 PM) [snapback]532790[/snapback]</div>

And what happened to those farms on Greenland, especially those of Eastern Settlement? The norse succumbed to bad environmental practices and a changing climate and their civilization collapsed.

When there is more precip that does not always translate into more glaciers or permanent pack ice. If it does stick you still have to take into consideration isostatic rebound, thermal expansion, and the host of other details that effectsea level. Scientists predict we will have more precip here in California as well but that with warmer temps the snow will not stick for long and we will have much reduced water for the summer months. Like we've all stated before, there could indeed be winners and losers in regards to the effects of global climate change BUT because there are a myriad of other negative outcomes due to GHG production, the possibility of some good doesn't outweigh the bad effects of that excess GHG accumulation. So again rate of change is what we need to be worried about. Our infrastructure is very delicate in regards to environmental change. Unlike the people of 1500yra, we cannot simply move our flock of sheep to the next mountain range and build a new mud shack. Environmental refuges will be a very important factor in the comming years and cities are already having problems adapating to the influx of urban migrants.

Who was the Sierra Club "leader" and what was his education in? If he wasn't a climatologist why were you askig him questions based on climate and cosmology? Most Sierra Club leaders I know are botanists. lol

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rocket @ Oct 31 2007, 01:17 AM) [snapback]532790[/snapback]</div>

No offense, but you're coming across as even less convincing than that Sierra Club guy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BuddyL @ Oct 30 2007, 04:37 PM) [snapback]532643[/snapback]</div>

Judging by your grammar, the which schools you attended leave something to be desired.

 

i have been the unfortunate victim of many highly scientific lectures... and to be honest with ya, the ones that were all science presented without color or conviction were soooo boring, that i no doubt probably missed half the information.

to have conviction i always thought was a good thing. i dont see how it would reduce the credibility of the message. when GW is the subject, straight facts presented without some wild predictions and possible future scenarios doesnt seem to make any impact.

to put it bluntly, we as a society, have to have information slammed in our face, for us to understand its importance. with the advance of information presentation we now "enjoy", we are being hit by all kinds of news stories with a priority level that seems to be assigned by a group of preteen girls.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rocket @ Oct 31 2007, 01:17 AM) [snapback]532790[/snapback]</div>

Yes, there will be some benefits. Longer golf seasons, more agriculture in Canada perhaps. Of course, we will have to put up storm surge controls around Miami, NY, etc.

About the warming on Mars and Neptune, (I hadn't heard Neptune, I had heard Pluto mentioned, which of course is entering its early autumn phase of the 200+ year cycle around the sun). Mars is the planet we've studied the best, yet we have very little accurate temperature readings. Viking probes landed in the late 70's, lasted a couple seasons, then nothing for several decades, then a spurt of activity since the very late 90's. We also have had Earth-based observations of the polar caps, but that isn't very accurate or long-lasting either. Keep in mind that Mars years last twice as long, so total number of martian years observed is quite low. I certainly wouldn't put much stock in Mars weather at this point. Could be orbital changes, could be leftover effects of whatever it was that caused the surface water to dry up (well, that's wild speculation on my part). Most recent reports are showing that solar forcing has had a minor to non-existent effect on additional warming since the 70's.

Got a meeting. One last point - if Greenland and Atlantic glaciers melt, that represents thousands of years of stored precipitation. It doesn't matter how much snow they get this decade, they'll still release much more water.