Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

Someone in the past mentioned here that modules in the middle of the pack degrade more. Whoever that was - take the credit - you were right in your observations. Here comes this Sunday test of Gen 3 (Prius 2010) pack as an illustrattion of the above: not 1 but 6 dead modules in the middle (#14-19). Tested on 14-CH Analyser which I am preparing for shipment. That test puts another 6 nails into the coffin for that wide-spread urban myth about one failed module and also shows that those 6 modules have failed individual cells - the shape of the discharge curves clearly tells the story (to people with brains): Toyota Hybrid Battery Experts | Facebook

 

Kiwi,

Heat is the enemy and the middle modules run hotter. The one failed module (actually one reversed cell) is a symptom of batteries that live out their life in cool climates. Batteries that live in warm climates fail like the one you just analyzed.

JeffD

 

Enjoy while it is free!
The Lexus pack modules by the way are now working in the other car - no prob.
Lexus Guy who does Hybrid Lexus with the help of my 20-ch Analyser has stats which you don't. So your opinion about Lexus packs have not been supported by the test results do not add any value.
But be careful in what you are saying as I am choosy to who gets hands on my tools. I may refuse to accept your money if you are a complete idiot.
Few Analysers are working full time in AUS and that is not at your place, so your avatar with pile of untested packs is misleading.
I have refused already several dudes from Sydney and Brisbane as they have no brains.
Two weeks ago I've spent 3 hours over the Skype educating for free and sharing experience with just another honest fellow from California, US who has brains and currently is using voltmeter and couple of RC charges to serve his clients - that takes him a lot of man-hours, as I can tell. He did not feel like it was an entertainment and thought it was well worth a decent pile of money which he did not pay.
I am thinking that I should probably start charging for my free video consultations.
There will be no comprehensive spoon-feeding replies to trolling comments.
I am still posting a lot of data for free on my Facebook page and youtube channel - but aiming at those with brains to digest what's in it for them...
You, not me have to explain why you need my tools and I can tell how smart you are and not the way around - you are trolling me with the intent to get free know-how....

Good luck, play safe, I recently saw once again on two occasions - people are forgetting about using HV Gloves and forgetting to test pack for the Voltage being present on the casing. Concrete floor is electroconductive - remember that. Do not touch with bare unprotected hand that stick Check the rubber for the holes - in case with battery "stick" the hole in rubber can kill :-(

..

 

umm, yea sure!

Thanks very much for the kind offer Kiwi really appreciate it.

Gave your "tools" some consideration however the "you-beaut" system your peddling does not provide for some very important and really simple modules of test criteria that I have incorporated to my very strict and effective battery module manual processing programme, while your system may be fast and even semi dummy-proof please bear in mind fast is not always (and often not) thorough, correct ..or effective.

I am sure the "brain dead idiot" people you openly speak about targeting /choosing/selling (or not) your tools to are finding them invaluable (as you said, they aren't too smart) but for me taking a little extra time to do the job properly generally means I don't have to do it a second time! to me this is invaluable.

Also I would hate to forever share a percentage of any profit gained or be at ones mercy simply because they set me up with a complex contraption that I did not need and could have easily worked without (and more thoroughly) anyway !! some people may be happy to feed you, I buy my bread, and my bread only! no middle man.

cheers Kiwi, will stock up on good HV gloves! got it.. check check.

hey, imagine if you could buy HV VELCRO GLOVES

peace out

 

So many different failure mechanisms for these darn things! being from a cooler climate, I rarely see inconsistent modules in the middle of a pack, even with high mileage, but ...

Seen quite a few packs lately from cars with moderate to high mileage and from areas of hilly terrain that have extremely low capacity on the modules in positions 1 and 28 .. modules 2-27 in these packs have been consistent with surprisingly even capacity.

I understand 1 and 28 have different characteristics and traditionally people here have been urged to give these modules benefit of doubt however 1 and 28 have been giving me hell lately I suggest everyone rebuilding high mileage packs from cooler climates to double check modules in these positions specially if the rest of the pack is unrealistically consistent with its self.

 

strawbrad - you have passion and inquisitive mind. Please do not be upset that "Steve" been banned from my page - he can always call me. Just for the sake of this chat and safety of others - turn module upside down and look at the safety markings underneath - can you see PP - PPE and the one telling you about "blow up" hazard? They are Class 9 by the way in the classification of hazardous materials.
It is up to you how you react to this.
I would be more than happy to remove that one relevant post from my FB page if Steve tells me that that was just for research and development purpose and not for sale to public....

 

Edit - User Kiwi directed some questions to me in post 1707 then once I replied he removed sections of the post.

sorry for any confusion this edit may have caused.

Matt

 

Awesome, that opens future dialogs and please know - there is always someone across the ditch to help you out... The Aus flag has just one extra star vs NZ and as we know - "one star" in some cases does not make any difference (if you know what I am talking about)
For modules safe disposal: while they are still compressed - and you found dead ones - discharge for safe disposal those to zero.... in some cases vents even on dead modules may open - so the place has to be ventilated.... Play safe...

 

No one in the Gen 4 forum was intrigued by this so I thought the DIY crowd would find it more "fascinating". If anyone knows more about this please share your knowledge as to the new Gen 4 NimH HV battery pack. There's not much on the web about it that I have been able to locate.

I posted the following in two Gen 4 forums:

Don't know if anyone else has read this yet but Toyota might have made a drastic change in the way the 28 NimH modules are connected to each other in series in the HV battery pack in the Gen 4.

Here's what was cited in an article posted four days ago:
A look inside the new Prius hybrid system - Autoblog

Electrical losses were also reduced: "Instead of joints put together with screws on bus bars and connection bars, we now weld them together,"

If this sentence is about the NimH HV battery pack and if the source is accurate, I don't like that at all!

It might be difficult (or impossible) to swap modules in Gen 4 packs when the time comes to replace a failed module or two. It is very easy to replace or rearrange modules on the Gen 1, 2, and 3.

Just something to be aware of for those considering a used Gen 4 a few years from now after they've accumulated 100K+ miles in Texas and Florida.

 

That's interesting, typical cost cutting! they will only be spot welded tags should be easy enough to "hack" cant wait to see a dead G4 pack, honestly when the time comes I doubt we will find many "good" modules in a failed G4 pack anyway these cars seem to be getting progressively harder on batteries as the years/generations go by, that's how Toyota keep getting better economy with bigger engines! HV battery wears the brunt of that, nothings for free. Plus they want the battery to fail so you buy a new car!! everything these days is built to be addictive and to fail, they want you to buy their product again not fix the old one!

..G1 could have been very easy on batteries had the battery modules themselves not been so poorly designed they "could" have potentially been the longest lived of all prius!. G2 was pretty darn good on batteries really overall you could usually find some quite good and useable modules (~5000mA) in a failed G2 pack because of the soc perimeters the car is designed to upkeep, G3 was a bit harder on batteries (and module quality/capacity from new has possibly declined over the years) by the time the G3 packs fail there wasn't too many modules in the pack worth putting back in service (maybe a handful ~4000mA) .. I have found camry packs similar if not worse to G3 prius.

Battery rebuilding will end up a trick of the past!

Brands suck you in with killer products initially then slowly but surely implement cost cuts (and end user price hikes) = max profit .. the product progressively declines, cars are no different to anything else.

I hate buying anything new these days, when out shopping take lube with you............

 

Faiing lithium cells cannot be revived like failed NiMh cells.
Overcharged lithium is basically trash.
Same thing with over-discharged lithium.
Much different than NiMh.

The matching of SOC and the threshold of voltage/capacity variance between used lithium modules may be more challenging to deal with than NiMh.

 

Hi Ericbecky..
Australian & European g4 didnt get lithium cells, we have been blessed with another generation of beautiful NIMH modules.

 

Hi Guys, hope all is well!
I got a couple of problems. I am trying to get 3 modules to get to at least 6500 mah and no luck .( 1st cycle 4500 3rd cycle 700) I did the 3 cycles but instead of my mahr getting higher it got lower on the 3rd cycle. Discharge .7A 6V Charge 5A to 7500 Mah I got all settings right. perhaps I'm doing something else wrong? Also, is it always 3 cycles or one can do it if the mahr reaches 6500?? I using a Hitec X4 charger.
I would appreciate your help guys!
Blessings!

 

You are shooting for the impossible on an old module. Don't get too fixated on that, you should be more interested in what each module actually is so you can match them, Even all modules as low as 3500 mAh will work ok together in a pack.

I'd be more inclined to discharge at 10-15 A (choose one and stick to it) down to 7.2 V and charge at 350-650 mA, lower is better, even if will take longer. If you want to discharge lower than 7.2 V (per module) use a much lower Amperage down to 3 V (0.5 V per cell).

 

Hi Dolj

Do you mean discharge down to 6.2v @ 15a ?.. 7.2v is not much of a target most modules that I have tested only offer about 1000/1500mA above 7.2v (at 18a)

350-650mA is nice for timed grid charging but not such a good idea for individual module charging, hobby chargers wont detect delta peak at such low current, I highly recommend sticking with the original plan of 5A or 6.5A if the chargers capable (with cooling) Prius charges and discharges at up to 120A.

 

Hi Eddieatl

6500 is a big ask its not going to happen unless your discharging at an extremely low /pointless rate, I think anything above 5000 is a pretty good module that should do well in the car.

3rd cycle 700mA sounds like you have done a second discharge without prior charging.

the way your doing it, you want to do at least 3 charge/ discharge cycles and if the discharge figures keep getting better then cycle it couple more times, when discharge starts to stabilize or drop off, stop at that.

 

No, I really did mean 7.2 – at that amperage, for the purpose of determining capacity, not reconditioning.

If I understand correctly delta peak detection is used to ascertain when a module is fully charged, which is fine, but how do you do your balance charge?

You have to remember that it only is the 40%-80% range, so it is not exactly relevant in this context. You are trying to recondition the module you will need to be less aggressive (both charge and discharge) if you want to steer away from damaging cells within the module.

 

delete, duplicate

 

You know guys, I am doing every setting as ryousideways did it on his thread and I thought was going to go smooth., but no really. Also, i thought you go discharge/charge...not the other way around? Little confused here when it comes to lower the current amps from 5A to charge slower, I can understand that, as well on the discharge lower settings. A lot gentle on the battery.
So, have you had any sucess on the lower settings and discharge|charge or charge|discharge?
Thank you guys for all the help!
Blessings!!


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