Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

P3030 is the code for a broken sensor wire to the battery module pairs. Being very thin the break where the terminal eye is crimped on. You can check them with an ohm meter from where the leave the battery terminals to the plug on the battery HV ECU.
The part above looks like the one of battery HV cable holding clamps.

Johm (Britprius)

 

I just bought 2007 Prius with 124k and about 5 weeks later the red triangle appeared on the dashboard. The dealer is asking for 2500+ to replace the battery pack. So I did some research and ran into this discussion thread. I had followed your guys instruction here on how to repair the battery pack and long behold, I had the car running after 5 days of balancing the batteries. This is the first day after the fixed. I will update how it goes after a few weeks. I just want to say thank you for all the info here! You guys rock!!!

 

Testing batteries from the pack individually by using RC charger/dis-charge is extremely time consuming process (unless you have 28 calibrated absolutely similar RC devices which is 100% impossible). That also does not give you proper results as you are dealing with different temperature at the time the individual battery was tested. The proper way of doing that is to charge all simultaneously and measure capacity by discharging them all simultaneously. Or in the case of 38 modules because of extremely high voltages involved and lack of proper charger - you may wish to run that procedure simultaneously on two halves of the pack.

 

Charging all the modules simultaneously is not difficult nor is discharging them, but keeping them all at the same temperature is near impossible. Charging at the same current and voltage to individual modules will give different temperatures for each module.
Charging them in a pack will always mean the center modules run hotter even with forced cooling.
For many here if not most the time spent is considered minor compared to the satisfaction and money saved by doing it themselves.

John (Britprius)

 

Possible - just do not overcharge them - as temperature will rise when you try to apply more charge than the battery could absorb and the energy starts to be converted into heat. With 10 temperature sensors across the pack in my tests I have not noticed dis-balance in temperature or extremes anywhere in the middle with Gen-1/2/3 batteries.
Used forced cooling only once when forgot to switch the charger off - but even then all batteries were around 40 Degrees Celsius. Which gave me a hint to develop special cut of circuitry to set up voice and visual alarm and disconnect charger when the temperature rised above set-up threshold.

 

The point of balancing the modules is that they must be over charged "at a low rate" otherwise any cells within a module that are at a lower level of charge will never be charged to the level of the rest. This is why charging to 7500 Mah produces much better results than charging to 6500 Mah. This does not mean you have to cook the modules.

John (Britprius)

 

You just reminded me with the key work "cook" to ask the forum in regards to one US patent, which suggested rejuvenation of battery capacity by keeping the NiMH battery in the 50 Degrees Celsius environment for 5 days.
Question: I wounder - has anyone done that? I consider it quite dangerous - so never tried myself.

 

From results here on PC high ambient temperatures appear to shorten the life of the HV battery. Hot states reporting a higher failure rate than cool states. This is the reason it is recommended to run the AC with the windows closed in hot weather to allow the battery cooling system to draw cool air from the cabin.

John (Britprius)

 

That make sense. However running a vehicle in a hot environment when the battery is charging/discharging is different from just keeping it hot in idle state as per that US patent. We are lucky here in New Zealand to have temperature all year round round within narrow window +5 to + 25 Celsius (41F - 77F). Little bit promo for green & clean NZ

 

Just posted video on youtube and linked in the Video thread:
Hybrid Battery Capacity Test | PriusChat
In that test old modules were overcharged above their assumed Full Charge Capacity (FCC).
2.7 Ah were pumped into old modules.
Capacity measured in Charge and then Discharged mode is quite low.
In other words - translated from old Russian saying: "Sauna would not bring new life into the already dead body..."

 

Kiwi with all due respect you are trying to sell us something that is not available to us. Also I think you are missing the point that that the majority of us do our own repairs to save money, time is not so important.
I agree along with most here that some modules will have failed or have a capacity that is to low to be of any use, but the fact is we are refurbishing batteries successfully using the minimum of equipment at minimal cost. Saving large sums along the way and gaining satisfaction from the experience. This also in according to your own web site is what your equipment is about, but I do not see any prices or even ballpark figures.
In Europe Toyota now will test the hybrid system for free and if it passes will extend the battery guarantee for 1 year or 10,000 miles which ever comes first, for up to ten years with unlimited millage. You can have 3 or 4 test per year if your millage is that high.
They also provide a full printout of the test results, so if there is a problem you can see exactly where the problem lies.
Good as your equipment may be, to be of any use to us diy'ers it must be available at home at minimal cost to be of real interest to the majority.
Again from your own blurb "the equipment is aimed at those wishing to start there own battery business at home or move to NewZealand and professional auto electricians". Generally this is not what the forum is about.
There are a number of professional Prius engineers and many amateurs that contribute greatly to PC naming one or two would be unfair to the rest that share there knowledge, but you are not doing this by just point us to your equipment.

John (Britprius)

 

John,
a) We are not selling right now. Not to the consumers anyway. Hence, there is no price tag.
b) We are sharing a lot of knowledge. There are many pages apart from the Testing Complex description. Latest video is something very illustrative to DIY'ers and hopefully will save their time and money.
c) We also looking for the feedback. You already provided some interesting info - thanks for that. Interesting to know that Toyota does something for free in UK. Do they do that for Taxi drivers over there or to the general public only?Then we would suggest getting that free service and share the printed results with us - would appreciate that.
Here in NZ - about 250 NZD for the scan test - nothing is free in this part of the world. The test dealership is capable of doing is limited to the pair of modules and, as we noticed by looking at some posts on this forum can easily be replicated by forum members by means of using cheap devices from China.
d) Did you have a chance to look at Health & Safety page for example? We also wish to raise awareness of the fact that HV batteries are not safe. Some people are buying batteries on eBay with International tracking and putting commercial flights at risk. Personally do not want to read any news of plain crash in Europe or other part of the world because some DIY'er have bought their battery on eBay, which did not reach the destination :-(.

Please continue with critics, we love it. That is the only way to understand what perceptions people may have and what glasses they see the world through....

 

Your video does little more than I can record with Techstream. As a retired EE I can build a system to do just what yours does, but that is of little use to other PC members unless I share the information. Clearly "and I understand the reasons why" you are not going to do this.
If you have no pricing on your equipment and are not selling at the moment your product is even more out of reach. I have looked at your video and learned nothing that I did not already know.
I am in no way trying to discredit your product but as it stands it is of no use to the members of PC, rather like the gen4 Prius we do not know what it looks like, it's specification, or it's price, and it's not available.

John (Britprius)

 

Thanks, John.
Acknowledge you are aware of the TS tool . Assuming as EE you are aware of the protocol and different tests. Then how about that:
a) You can't record with TS readings from battery when it is of the car - we can
b) You can't record with TS individual modules - we can
c) You can't record with TS more than 8 pairs at a time - we can up to 40 individual batteries
d) TS can't record for as long as you want to - we can
e) TS will not control your charging or dis-charging equipment - we can
f) TS will not provide any voice alerts - we can

If that is "little" then let's keep talking,
P.S. Please scan and upload free test results from Toyota UK - would love to see those.... from the consumer point of view - "what's in it for me?" we bet that those are rubbish because.. using TS they would not let the battery pair to drain charge too much. In the narrow window of the test - battery pairs will look OK ("swing" will be OK). As we use to say in New Zealand - "good as gold". Our latest test on 2008 battery which made a lot of kms suggests that Dealership test will be OK but actually there are few battery modules one should keep an eye on...

 

Show me where I said the battery needs to be off the car
Techstream will record 16 module pairs 28 batteries, and why would I need to check 40 batteries when there is only 28 on the Prius gen2/3 and less on some later models. Why do I need voice alert?
I do not understand with your system what is in it for PC members or how it will save them time and money. With Toyota's test (free) you end up with an extended guarantee, will that apply to your system.
PC members will make up there own minds as to how helpful a piece of equipment is that is not available. No amount of talk is going to get over that fact.

John (Britprius)

 

John,
We know what TS can and can't do. Not interested. We have certified Toyota Engineers on this side of the Globe who were trained in Europe and Japan.
TS does not measure Capacity - Our tool does. That is a HUGE difference. Let's park that.

What we are really interested to get opinion about is the following:

What is happening in that after market business right now and what we are trying to get people aware of (money saving starts here...) is :
Buying second hand battery or the whole pack without knowing it's current parameters is a gamble.
The value for the Prius Chat member (to start with) is to be aware of that and start asking their supplier, service provider, wrecker "what is the state of health / capacity of that battery is?
No difference of someone buying vehicle and doing inspection prior to purchase. Giving warranties on refurbished batteries is a big risk not only to the seller (potential losses due to the unfair returns), but to the buyer as well. What if they are planning long trip in the rural area and blinded by so called "warranty"?
It is like for GP to give someone "warranty" that their heart will "just be fine in year or two to come" by testing today's cholesterol. GP do not do that. Battery seller shouldn't either. All they have to provide is the working battery pack with the recently measured capacity of individual modules. What we observe on eBay or trademe.co.nz is: $XX - tested. Period. How tested? What is the FCC? 1AH? 4AH? 5?
We promote the following approach:
Want the new one - go see the dealership. Honestly - it is the best option. They will install it and give you the warranty. To expensive? Bargain seeking DIY person? Just need replacement battery to transport that car to the sales yard? Fair enough. Buy second hand. Install yourself. Don't kill yourself. Make sure seller provided you with the docket showing that the battery was recently tested (say 3 months tops, no later) and shows XX% of the design capacity

Thoughts? From you as a DIY consumer person view:
- Would you accept that No Warranty, Cheaper Price, Known Capacity approach? If yes, then:
- How old the test should be (e.g. in UK in winter probably 6 month, 3 months in summer, maybe?)
- What should be the fair price for the second hand pack in % of the Dealership (goods only, no installation)
if Full Charge Capacity (FCC) is:
90-100% of design capacity =
80-90% =
70-80% =
60-70 =
50-60 =
40-50 =
<40 - free to the good hands

 

As A DIY consumer person, non of the above. I would rebuild the battery myself.
This is what a large number of people on this forum do. In fact if you read through the threads on re building you will find a reasonable number that are doing or have done just that.
One member quoting he had done it in 11 days your response was "that is to long", it is still 11 days faster than he could have done it in using your equipment that is not available.
As I have stated more than once I am not trying to trash your product, but it is of no use to the members of PC unless they intend getting into the battery refurbishing business. It may be very useful to professional re builders but at what cost, and when. There are no answers to these questions.

John (Britprius)

 

John,
Then wouldn't it be logical question to ask you and all DIY'ers who are planning to rebuild the battery themselves:
"when you would be buying spare module(s) to rebuild your Prius HV Battery what you be making buying decision upon? Price? Will you also take your voltmeter with you?
Not good enough (IMHO). The individual module on eBay is ridiculously overpriced (on condition there is no info available of its capacity (FCC)) for starter and none of a dozen of sellers over there is quoting the capacity of the modules they sell. Not to mention they are sending hazardous goods by means of UPS .
We gave away dozens of modules for free. We bought (yes we paid big $$ for many packs as wreckers normally stubbornly think they posses something precious ) for testing purposes and now after giving those away are observing some of them appearing for ridiculous price online with the claim "tested". How? With voltmeter? With RC dis-charger? We gave them away cause people claimed they would not be using them for sale and we advised them those were below what we consider to be usable [in hybrid vehicle] capacity.

John and Co:
- Please enlighten us with your way of buying spare module(s) for your rebuild. What is your smart approach not to get a "lemon" - and not waste your time and money?

P.S. Watch the space - during coming long weekend (Waitangi Day in NZ) we are going to test another NHW-20 on the individual module basis and publish results. We bough it for "purity of the test" reasons - relatively fresh year (battery would've been still under warranty), known high mileage (trigger!), known reg#, vin#, it is Taxi and we have dismantled it from Prius NHW-20 ourselves.
Wrecker was cruel on price :-(. But we have all grounds and gut feeling to believe that it is not that "precious" and that would be perfect example in line with the Department Of Energy test results.
Capacity of the whole pack has already been measured in our lab in one go (your TS would be useless to figure that out). We will publish time lapsed video of charge/discharge and capacity results soon.

 

Kiwi,

I replaced my 2004 HV battery with a professionally rebuilt ReInVolt 58,000 miles ago after being notified by my Prius that the battery had failed. Since I was allowed to keep my old battery and I am an EE Professor, I took the old one apart and, using a hobbyist battery recharger/balancer, tested/balanced and recorded the capacity of the 27 still good modules. All of them had over 6.5Ah capacity after my rebalancing protocol and were sold to six DIYers in sets who all then successfully fixed their Prii batteries. So you see that some (not all - only a few) of the modules available on eBay are tested and documented to be ready for use. It is up to the buyer to judge the knowledge and honesty of the seller.

JeffD

 

What's the best way to determine the pack has been connected in parallel for long enough? Do I have to disconnect the harness and measure each module?