Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

Thank you very much. I went ahead and purchased a couple modules, and the charging system.

Thank you. Didn't know that!

 

On Hybrid Automotive's site, you choose vehicle generation & mileage range for the module. Many refurbished also mis module generations in the same pack which is not a good idea.

Replacement Toyota Prius Module - Hybrid Automotive

 

The HA Prolong system is great (I have one on my HiHy) BUT, it's really for prolonging the life of the battery as it's name suggests. If you are taking the time to rebuild a pack IMHO it's usually worthwhile to do it right. That involves checking all the battery modules for both capacity (mAh) and voltage drop under load (V). Capacity is checked using RC battery chargers (yes, this takes a few days even with a 4 channel charger like the Hitec X4 or SkyRC Quattro......post 204 in this thread shows how to do this). Then after that you need a headlight and a voltmeter to test the voltage drop under load (I use a 120-130W load over 2 minutes, conditions must be the same every time you test a module to have results you can compare......post 244 in this thread shows how to do this). Sounds like you will have at least one bad module but you may find others too, never assume anything. Run these same tests on the replacement modules (be sure to have them clamped in the pack anytime you are charging!!!) and check if they have similar results to what was seen in the rest of the modules. If they are within spec (ie reasonably close, I use less than 10% difference as my cutoff) then the replacements should fit well with the rest of the good modules and the pack should be fine for many miles to come. Many have used the replace and pray method to rebuild the packs but I have rarely seen that work out for any reasonable period of time (ie complete luck if it works out).

I would then add the HA Prolong system as a maintenance service to keep the pack going longer than it normally would. Over time cells in each module become out of balance with each other. Eventually one cell becomes too low relative to the others and may reverse (which is likely what caused at least one of your modules to fail). The prolong system simply tops them all off and pushes out the time to failure significantly. I suggest using this grid charger when the weather is coldest (I use mine in early spring and late fall) since heat does damage the cells.

So hope you can now see how they are both helpful but for different reasons.

 

Wow, the last time I read this much about anything, was way back in high school some 40 years ago.
It had everything...sadness, drama, failure and jubilation.
Kudos to the braintrust that has taken us on this journey and helped us arrive at the level of knowledge we needed to carefully and safely DIY our own HV Batteries.
I have a question about the rearranging of the battery modules into pairs when reassembling the pack...
I get that you take the best battery and the worst one to make one pair, then the 2nd best one and pair it with the 2nd worst one, and so on till you arrive at the last pair which will likely be the same as each other. I also get that you put the strongest pairs in the middle due to the additional heat they will have to withstand.
What I am confused about is do I use the current voltage as the determining factor or do I use the DeltaV from the load test to pair my modules?

Thanks,
Robert
2011 Prius Neon Green (former Dial-A-Ride Fleet Vehicle from Arizona)

 

It's all kind of a crap shoot anyway.
Plus diminishing returns.
Whatever way you do it it won't be "wrong" and you will likely be back in doing it again anyway. So just pick an option and honwith it.

Fo this first try, why not use the delta v.
Then completely refill the pack before driving it.

Use Torque Pro or Techstream to see how it does in realtime when driving to make sure there isn't too much variability between vblocks.

Did you measure overall capacity?

 

Ok so I paired them based on my DeltaV data (in other words I measured the starting voltage of each module then used the glass headlight I bought from Walmart as my load. I tied both the high and low beams to the circuit. I then took voltage readings at 1 minute, 2 minutes and 3 minutes).

This identified 2 outlier modules and I replaced them. I rearranged the pairs as stated in my first message.
I put the lowest and highest matched pairs starting in the center. I might rethink that next time because these pairs with the most difference will have a high and low mixed so this puts the weakest and strongest matched as a pair in the middle of the pack where heat will be an issue for the weaker one in the pair. I think it would be better to put the evenly matched pairs starting in the middle.
I know I'm agonizing over nuance but every little bit will help.

I do not have and data on overall capacity.
I am awaiting the delivery of my Techstream and mini-vci, any day now.


I have a grid charger I built for my Honda Insight and was lucky enough to use the proper sized constant current power supply to be able to use it for both the Honda insight and the Prius.

I have not done the 3 discharge/charge cycles yet in the Prius.

A question that was never really answered is...

It is assumed that the 3 discharge/charge cycles are done consecutively but I don't have 3 to 5 days to take my daily driver out of commission. I drive 120 miles a day to work.
Is there some modified process I can do to complete the 3 cycles by doing 1 discharge/charge cycle each weekend?

One final question, how can I power on the HV cooling fan while using the grid charger, it was easy for the Honda Insight but the Prius fan seems way more electrically complicated?

 

The harness for the Prolong grid charger has connections to power the fan.
Hybrid Automotive lists different chargers for your Prius and the Insights. Their charger only for your Prius is CO-PR. The 2000-2006 Insight is CO-I1 2009-2014 Insight is CO-I2 There must electrical differences in the grid chargers.

Check it out here: Prolong® Charger Only - Hybrid Automotive

Full reconditioning package: Prolong® Deluxe Reconditioning Package - Hybrid Automotive

 

The 3 discharge concept is completely arbitrary.

Doing 1 cycle is better than doing none at all.

If I we're doing multiple cycles I would do them consecutively. But you can do whatever works for you. No one will mind.

You'll need a PWM controller of some kind to run the Prius fan. If you search around I remember back in the day there were schematics floating around. Definitely do not charge/discharge the pack without cooling it. That would be bad.

 

I am a little concerned they are planning on using an Insight grid charger. @jeff652 would know the general differences between an Insight charger and a Gen 2 Prius one..

 

He’ll know a lot of those differences as he’s owned about 25 gen1 insights.

Not sure on the differences on voltages, but might be doable.

 

My charger is based on the Mean Well LPC-100-350 LED driver. (cost: about $26 add a ventilated box, a panel meter, a 12v power supply for a cooling fan and voila!)
It puts out a constant current of 350mA which meets the requirement of a "gentle charge." It has a voltage range of 143v to 286v.

It is able to charge the Honda Insight who's battery peak range is 168v to 172v.
And...
It is perfect for my 2011 Prius with it's peak range requirement of 235v to 240v.

So far I have only used it on the Prius when the battery is out and on my bench with the cover off and big box fans keeping it cool, but here in Southern California we have had one of the longest streaks of hot summer temperatures that seem to hit 100 almost every day for a month.
I try to top charge the batteries overnight when it is cooler but once I hit high 90s I have to shut it down for the batteries sake and wait until the next evening.
*I think I may have to shift my charge-discharge activities by 6 months and do it during the much cooler winter months.

I am able to use the same incandescent light bulb based discharger on both vehicles through my wiring harness. I would love to add an intelligent voltmeter with relays to automatically shut off at the target thresholds but that is a future "convenience" mod.

I'm wondering if I could solve the fan issue by mounting a decent, high speed 12v fan temporarily at the inlet port during my charge/discharge sessions and avoid having to pull the battery for cooling purposes.

But if someone could send me the link to the PWM circuit that would be awesome.

 

Agreed, I did 3 discharge/charge cycles individually to confirm each modules charge capability .It did not tell me which module would go bad next, but it did allow me to judge how many modules of the 28 were good, great or marginal . By the time I was proficient in it over half the pack had been replaced .

We are very lucky to have a Hybrid Battery Hero and others sharing their experience to keep these cars on the road and we owners out of the dealership . We can almost all enjoy just shy of twenty years of fantastic mpg and reliability with a infusion of new or newer matched cells once ..jury is still out on BOLT TELSA LEAF VOLT and all the new expensive full EV luxury cars coming to compete ...

Kenny

 

I'm still trying to comprehend all this.

There is also the Turnigy Reaktor with the built-in power supply:
Turnigy Reaktor 300W 20A AC/DC Synchronous Balance Charger now with NiZN and LiHV (US Plug) | HobbyKing
However, this also doesn't have data logging or a temperature sensor.

Although I want to make the right decision, I also need to actually make a decision. There's all sorts of information overload going on in my brain and there's starting to be some procrastination.

From a beginner's point of view, what about the Turnigy Reaktor 300W 20A ( Turnigy Reaktor 300W 20A 6S Balance Charger now with NiZN and LiHV | HobbyKing )
and paired up with the Turnigy Reaktor Pro 350W 23A Power Supply ( Turnigy Reaktor Pro 350W 23A Power Supply (100~240V AC) )?

That would give me an immediate solution, with the option of exploring regenerative discharge later on (I'm still trying to figure out the specifications for the required marine battery).

Am I correct in concluding that the above combination of Reaktor 300W 20A and matching power supply is a much better choice than the all-in-one AC Reaktor?

How useful and essential is the data logging and temperature sensor?

Edit: S Keith commented some time ago: "If you don't want to do regenerative discharges with a 12V battery, then the 1000W is the much better choice."
If I don't want to go with regenerative discharge until I get some experience with this, then what power supply would I need to buy to go with the 1000W?

 

Dataliggi g and temp sensor not essential.
Useful? Depends on whether you want to save the data or not.

I can't comment much on chargers like turnigy. I'm sure others will chime in.

But as you alluded to, don't get too bogged down in details. Just make a decision and go with it.

 

So If I got 2 modules hooked in parallel (positive to positive and neg to neg) to speed up the cycling with a hobby charger that allows up to 15 nimh cells at once, without care for the mah stats. Do I have to up the total mah capacity cut off to 14500 (2x 7250mah) or just 7250mah and it'll naturally spread to both the batteries? . Anyone do this?

or does it need to be connected in series rather than parrell?

 

You can connect two modules in series, and double the Voltage, but not the Amp hours, if your charger can handle it.

When charging in parallel, if one module becomes defective, the stronger module can suddenly dump its entire charge into the weak module, causing catastrophic failure of the module and its surroundings, and possibly injury and/or death to you and/or other occupants of your dwelling.

I do not recommend parallel charging.

 

Honestly speaking.. just get 14 divided by how many days you don't mind waiting for a full 3 cycle charge. 4 days? Then get 4 of them...

or a cheaper ebay link.. i offered 61 and was accepted.
HTRC AC 150W DC 240W Dual Channel 10A RC Car Balance lipo NiMH battery Charger 5223400986711 | eBay

Charge at 2A with 7200 mah max capacity cutoff, discharge at 2A to 6.0, 3 cycles per battery each cycle takes a day. That does 2 at once.. with 4 of them you'll be done in 4 days with the complete set of 28 modules at 3 cycles a piece.

The turnigy is super expensive for a single connection for prius use., you'd need 7 of these to finish in 4 days, or 5 of them to finish in 6 days. Discharge will save some time, but the charge cycle will be no different. Get a 2A discharge capable hobby charger and it'll be good enough. . if you charge faster than 2A at the high end at capacity, the battery will start to expand.. and anything from experience over 2A is risky. I did a 5A charge and my battery got really puffed from my test run.. even under heavy clamping. So now I stick to 1.8A more or less. 0.3C.

 

I did the REAKTOR single charger took 2 to 3 weeks to work through the pack , one at a time - same settings mentioned above ..after playing wack a mole for almost 2 years , and having to keep the car local because it may throw codes at any time ..I replaced all 28 cells with much newer battery 18 monthes old .

With my previous pack although very in tune with each cells capacity ..there was no definitive rhyme or reason to what module would fail next . Some of the older 4000mah hung on and some newer 5000mah + would be the one that would drop . When I went through the whole pack and let all cells normalize to each other in parallel before putting pack back in car it seemed to space out the drop rate from days or weeks into monthes but never longer than 6 monthes .

My advice is if you are going to be done with the car in a few monthes or year later ..individual module replacement is a inexpensive way to keep the car on the road, or to pass smog or sell the car . If you are keeping the car the cell replacement doesn't minimize any real replacement cost it only defers the purchase . If I had to do over would have done a promotional rate for a cc, purchased new cells and been done with it. Also learned is that the batt replacement is same of tax and license on any vehicle I would replace my Prius with .

Kenny

 

Which Reaktor do you have, and what settings were you using?

Does anyone have any feedback on how useful or relevant LogView is?

Will LogView help us to determine the remaining life of a module?

I’m going to run multiple Toyota hybrids to rent to rideshare drivers, so for me it’s all about being able to a) rebuild batteries as required, and b) being able to always have at least one Prius battery and one Camry Hybrid battery ready to go.

Although I’d love to buy new battery packs from Toyota, running costs will be critical.

In a couple of months I’ll most likely buy a complete set of Hybrid Automotive stuff - Prolong chargers, dischargers, etc, but I’ll still need to troubleshoot and replace bad modules as required.

I was going to buy a new Reaktor at the start of this week but then decided to try and find a secondhand iCharger or two.

I found an iCharger 106B+ here in Perth and then bought an iCharger 406DUO on eBay US. The 406DUO will take a while to get here but has just about the highest specifications around (ie above the Reaktor 1000W).

Being twin channel, the 406DUO will let me recondition two modules at once, as well as giving me the option of regenerative discharge.

Both iChargers have ports for a temperature sensor and PC USB cable, and the 406DUO also has an SD card slot.

iCharger 106B+ Specifications:
Input voltage range: 10.0 – 18.0VDC
Charge current range: 0.05 – 10.0A
Discharge current range: 0.05 – 7.0A
Maximum charge power capacity: 250W @ input voltage > 13.5V
Maximum discharge power capacity: 20W
Maximum extern discharge power capacity: 170W @ 25V/7A
Current drain for balancing: <300mA
Balance accuracy: <10mV
Intelligent temperature control: Yes
PC Connect: USB port

iCharger 406DUO Specifications:
Input voltage range: 10.0—30.0VDC
Maximum input current limit: <60A, CH1/2<47A
Maximum charge/discharge current: 70A@Syn. Mode 40A@Asyn. Mode
Maximum charge power capacity: 1400W (Channel 1000W @input > 23.5V)
Maximum discharge power capacity: 140W (Channel 80W)
Maximum regenerative discharge power capacity: 1400W (Channel 1000W)
Maximum extra discharge power capacity: 2000W (Channel 1000W @25V/40A)
Maximum current drain for balancing: 2.4A@Syn. Mode 1.2A@Asyn. Mode
Intelligent temperature control: Yes
PC Connect: USB port and SD card slot

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I don’t have any cables that go from the charger to a module (ie banana to alligator clip). Is there any particular specification that I need to be looking for?

 

Charge at 2A with 7200 mah max capacity cutoff, discharge at 2A to 6.0, 3 cycles per battery per MAVI and I put a wait time between of 3 or 5 minutes

Have the original reaktor 250W single ~ think I paid $70.

If you are doing multiple cars you may benefit more from having an additional core to keep stacked as the best, hot spare - or the worst modules to be a next core for new battery . Or get in line for the Cylindrical cells from 2ktoaster and sell off all the viable modules leftover to recover up to half the cost.

Kenny