Gen II & Gen III in snow

In the words of my 7 year old - You started it. I'M KIDDING!

It is only relevant in supporting your (supposed) ability to drive in snow, it doesn't make any difference as far as the car's TC goes. I can tell you I've lived in NY all my life. Do we get the snow you get? Don't know, but we get plenty and I KNOW how to drive in snow. I would prefer a car W/O TC vs. with. I can FEEL what the car is doing and adjust accordingly. TC, if too aggressive doesn't allow me to do that.

Don't judge others' ability to drive in snow by whether they're in love with the Prius' TC or not, that's all I'm saying. You cannot make that assessment, too many variables. I can say that I LOVE driving in the snow when I have a car I trust, and I've been doing it for 30 years.

FINALLY, full disclosure. That's what I'm looking for. I agree with this ^

Unfortunately I did not know about the "TC Two-Step" when I got stuck on the gravel hill. And, I'd venture to guess that 99% of Prius drivers don't even know the procedure exists.

Yes, the Prius' TC is SO good, that it is at it's best when you DO NOT USE IT. Anyone else see the contradiction? Or is it just me!!

Yes, that seems to be true also from what I've read here. There's one person who has to do this on occasion to get up the hill to his house. Again, I had no clue when I was stuck. I backed down and skipped that part of my task. (I was viewing land parcels up for tax sale)

I don't think we disagree that much after all. That's no fun.

Zhe Wiz

 

Gen III in the snow

Any time you drive a car in the snow you are dependent on both the car and the tires on the car. I own a Gen III (2010 MY) with General Altimax Artic snow tires this winter. I have never had a problem with traction or getting stuck, and the snow this year in Indiana has been impressive. In Colorado, you can easily get Green Diamond snow tires (tungsten carbide granules in the tread). I have owned two sets of these tires on other vehicles and they are great. A new Prius with good snow tires and your are in great shape. If you run the OEM tires on the Prius in the winter -- don't know.

 

Re: Gen III in the snow

Not to go TOO far off topic, but I have to say I am IMPRESSED with the Altimax Arctic tires. I put a set (no studs added) on my Subaru as soon as I brought it home in January. They are VERY good tires. Hard to directly compare with the Prius running x-ices and Blizzaks because of the drivetrain difference, but when the current winter tires wear out, I'll probably replace them with studded Generals. I'm impressed even w/o the studs.

How much of an MPG hit are you taking on the Prius? IMHO ( <- don't laugh) MPGs are secondary to safety in the Winter, but I'm curious. That's one thing the x-ices are good at, they seem to be have pretty low rolling resistance for snow tires.

Zhe Wiz

 

Either that or he should drive in Eco mode whole time when it's slippery out there. Any other questions?

 

Both 11 & 111 will not go in fresh snow above 6" in height due to ground clearance issue. Both have TC that stops the wheels from spinning so it is very difficult to rock the car to get it unstuck. High quality snow tires allow us to use it in snow. If you want a high performance snow car that will out perform most 4wd's this is not it. Try gas powered Camry or Accord with high quality snows. They are the best I've ever seen in snow after the one wheel drive Chevy Caprice station wagon with studed snows. If you hate OPEC as much as I do you will deal with Prius's shortcommings in the snow.

 

Yes, an important one.

Is that your recommendation or Toyota's ?

 

In case you guys haven't noticed, Zhe Wiz is really sensitive about this subject.

As I said in my 5000 mile update thread... as long as you have proper snow tires, I think ground clearance is the major winter issue (for most drivers on paved roads, in civilization) Any ice or debris taller then your fist is a potential noisemaker under the car. I already have 1 crack in my front valance from pushing into my driveway over the berm the street plow leaves. I'm hoping BT products makes their skidplate for the Gen3's at some point, I'd love to protect the belly of the car better next winter. Just have to be more careful with the front lip I guess.

 

Our 2010 is awesome in the snow. A full .set of Nokian studded tires probably help too.

 

M a y b e !

Zhe Wiz

 

Do you think in an emergency, like that gravel road that Zhe Wiz spoke about, that one could remove air from the tires down to 10-20 psi and make it out of a jam?

Then assuming it's paved roads ahead, you could put air back in the tires.

This would suck, but perhaps a way to get out of an oddball situation?

 

I don't think that would work. I think the most likely successful solutions are going up backwards or disabling TC. The road I was on would have made going up backwards quite difficult, but if I'd known how to disable TC, I'm certain thar would have worked.

Zhe Wiz

 

Mileage HIt Running Snow Tires (General Altimax Artic)

To answer the question, it is difficult to accurately judge the gas mileage hit for these snow tires. I bought the car in late November last year. A lot of the miles on the car are with the snow tires mounted and all of this time the ambient temps have been below normal in Indiana. My best guess is the MPG reduction is only 2 MPG. I will have a better idea as it warms up and get a few fill ups after the snow tires come off.

 

Hello. I'd like to start by saying that I've never had traction control before. My first impression of it is not at all good.

I do know how to drive a regular front wheel drive car in snow. So does my wife. We've been driving back roads to Northeastern ski resorts for decades in blizzards, with a base of ice, etc., etc., etc. We had multiple Camrys before this as well as other front-drive cars and have never had trouble getting up steep back roads to ski areas, even when not well plowed. Please don't make this a "my snow beats your snow" discussion. I don't care. Any car can be stopped by sufficient snow in the east or the west.

So, how do I drive with traction control?

Clearly, this is a new skill I must learn. My wife and I each tried driving up a hill covered with snow and some ice. In each case, we had momentum going up the hill. In any non-traction-controlled car, we'd have had no trouble. We were going over 30 MPH. One slip of the wheels and the traction control stopped us dead in our tracks. The first time with my wife driving, the slow down was more gradual. The second, I was driving and the car came to a near grinding halt.

This was rather upsetting since we watched a 2 WD little Hyundai get up the hill without trouble.

What are we doing wrong?
How can one keep the car going?
Is there something wrong with our traction control system requiring service?

I know we need new tires. The original Yokohamas suck and now have 23,000 miles on them making them even suckier. However, I also know that we had the momentum to get up the hill. So, please try not to pretend that replacing the tires is the whole answer. This hill was too steep and slippery to get started again. Once momentum was lost, we were dead in the (frozen) water. Luckily, we had another way around this road that only caused us to drive for an extra hour in snowy conditions and get in very late at night before having to get up early for skiing.

Had we been without an alternate route, this would have left us sleeping in the car in the freezing cold.

Why did TRAC kill all power?
Shouldn't TRAC provide the maximum possible power to the tires without causing them to slip?
Wouldn't this have kept our momentum up the hill?
What is the proper driving technique for using TRAC instead of fighting it?

The answer can't possibly be to slow down to single digit speeds because there is just not enough traction to start from zero on the steepest part of the hill.

If you want to claim I'm a bad driver, fine. But, tell me what I'm doing wrong. Driving with traction control is obviously a very new and different skill. Good snow drivers without traction control instantly become bad drivers. Obviously, several of us here are struggling to learn this new skill.

What is the secret?

We desperately need this to be an all-season car. Else we'll have to buy something else and give up our fantastic gas mileage.

 

Also, for those of us who do not have space to store two sets of tires, can anyone recommend the best all weather all year tires that won't kill my mileage? Has anyone tried these?

WINTER SNOWCONTROL™ SERIE II, Car Tires, Winter tires - PIRELLI Tires - US

 

This is a well known and well proven solution to getting out of very soft situations like soft sand. I've seen it used successfully in Land Cruisers and Land Rovers in Africa's soft sands on safari. However, it was also used in conjunction with locking the differentials, which is the exact opposite of traction control. When the diffs are engaged in such a vehicle, all four wheels move at the same speed. Any or all my be spinning and slipping, but equal power is transmitted to all.

Would this work with a Prius such as the Gen 3 that has traction control that cannot even be disabled in any way?

I tried it. It didn't work for me. I only dropped by about 5 pounds. I was then still stuck ... and in need of more air in my tires afterward to get better mileage.

 

Your impression is of using an instrument without knowing how. Hardly says anything about the instrument, only the operator.

I will use a ski analogy here since it is likely you ski since you frequent these areas. It is like when you put someone with really bad ski form on a steep mogul filled run. Yes they can ski. But they cannot ski well. They will get to the bottom, but will be tired and frustrated. If they knew how to actually ski, it would be a 30minute run and hardly an eye would bat.

Same situation here. A car with no traction control can "power through" with terrible form and a complete lack of driving skill. Smash a square peg in a round hole hard enough and eventually it will fit.

By driving properly. You apply the amount of power you need for the situation. This is not "I need more power therefore hulk smash the pedal". The car will try to give you the power you request via pedal input. If you request more then can be applied with traction, you will slip and stop. If you request enough power to move still within traction limits, onwards you go.

I know it can be upsetting watching cars pass you on a hill with no trouble. I see it in the eyes of all the people in big SUVs hitting curbs and spinning out while I pass them in my Prius going up steep mountain passes or even local intown switchbacks.

Without being there, nobody here can tell you what you were doing wrong for sure. It is possible the road was simply not passable. However if other cars were making it, then it probably was. And not always is it driver error. The tires that come on a Prius are crap. In dry, wet, or snow, they just suck. Get some real tires. And remember, LRR (Low Rolling Resistance) tires are purposely built to have less contact and less grip on the road then normal tires. In the dry or most conditions, this is acceptable. But if you are in a snowy region, get snow tires. That is why they make them.

As with any vehicle, the key to driving in the snow is keep the car moving. Once you have stopped/stalled, you are pretty much doomed. Reverse and go back down to try again. Very rarely will you be able to get going from a stop on a steep and slippery slope. This is just physics, and is true for every vehicle if conditions are bad.

Your traction control is more than likely fine, but there is nothing to guarantee there is not a wheel speed sensor problem. If you do not have warning lights of traction control engaging frequently and on surfaces you would not expect to see it, then I doubt there is a problem. But doubt and proof are different.

Tires are a big part of it. But I have navigated the Rocky Mountain ski resorts (with real hills ) on balding all-seasons. A lot more skill and concentration is required, but it is doable. Something for the future, carry chains. I have a set of chains in the hatch, real chains. Not those little ribbed things, but real full chains. They are a PITA to put on, but they work. I test them every year to make sure there are no lost linkages or rust throughs. I have only ever used them once in a parking lot to test them out and they are wonderful. I can post a picture of the brand/size if you are interested. Do not rely on others to rescue you. Your Plan B of sleeping in the car means you need to rethink it. Buy some chains for $100 and carry them around. I carry mine every day, even in the summer. If I ever need them, they are there.

And you did not have the momentum to get up the hill. You can only say this if your velocity was great enough to remain positive after losses due to gravity and friction. Which they obviously were not because you stopped. If you could have coasted up the hill, then yes you would be correct. However, you required extra energy from the wheels which you failed to deliver, so nature and physics won.

The wheel spin is limited to prevent damage to the transaxle, not to move you forward.

I think you are assuming the traction control system is also a power input regulator. The traction control does one thing. If the wheel speed is different for the two front wheels, it shuts power down for a few hundred milliseconds. This is more aggressive and longer duration in earlier models (like I have a 2006 which is more "aggressive" then yours, but less aggressive than 2004-2005). That is all the traction control does. It is your job as the driver to limit the wheel speeds so that they do not spin. This is done by modulating your power request through your foot on the accelerator. The moment you request more power than can be applied without wheel spin, traction control kicks in and stops you.

I hope I have given enough above to help. It is a skill that must be learned, and every vehicle is different. I recommend going to a parking lot late at night when it is snowy and icy out and play around. Get it up to speed, slam on the brakes, J-turn, whatever. It is both fun and enlightening. You can learn what the car does and how it reacts so that when the time comes to use it, you know what it is going to do. For instance, in the Prius (at least in mine) if stopping hard on a slippery surface, the back end has a tendency to want to come out if you are on a turn more than any other vehicle I have driven. So from this, I take do not brake and swerve hard to avoid a collision infront. Either swerve then brake, or brake and hold steady. Otherwise the backend might fish out, and you will spin and hit instead of stopping. It could be the extra few hundred pounds in the back from the battery and a light engine on a FWD car. But learn the car and it will help in any weather.

Something to give you hope is that with proper driving, the Prius is a great snow machine. It's one weakness is ground clearance. If there is 12inches of powder, you can probably ram through it. If it is 12inches of wet snow, you are probably going to get stuck at some point. Mine has made it up the Rocky mountains to most of the ski resorts in Colorado. I live on a mountain with almost a 2000ft vertical drop between house and town and it makes it up that every day, even when it is snowing and monstrosity class SUV's are spinning out.

I will say this. If you drive in a place that routinely gets snow, or actually has a winter, not just a slightly cool summer in December, get snow tires. I have Michelin X-ICE2's on my Prius now. They have performed the best of any snow tire on various vehicles I have, so I went with what I know works. On the Prius they are great. I still get 45mpg to 48mpg with them on, and the snow/wet/slush handling is superb. In the dry, they are very grippy but I still get 45mpg+ which is totally worth it.

An all season tire should be chosen only if all of your "seasons" are similar and mild. Southern US is perfect for it.

And you do not have to store a second pair of tires. You can get new ones every summer/winter on the same rims. But For the space of one moving box, having them are great. I have my original all-seasons on the stock rims in my garage. My winters are on cheap aluminum rims. This way I can swap them out myself, or have the store do it for $8 (TPMS cost).

You can do it without a locked differential. But you really need to deflate it. 5 pounds is nothing. The goal is to get more tire in contact with the road in hopes that some area from this "newer wider tire" will grip and give traction. This means deflating it to the point that the rim is barely above the ground and tire looks almost flat with maybe an inch between ground and bottom of the inner rim. The opposite approach is to pump up the tires so they look bloated. This will make them look more like bicycle tires than car tires. The goal here is to make the tire contact point so small that all the vehicle weight is distributed on a smaller surface area. This will make the car "cut through" whatever is below it to the pavement which may provide a way to get some traction. Driving like this is much more difficult as you have very little traction. On a Prius, I don't see the second option working unless the traction control is disabled. Which can be done, and I keep a sheet of paper in the car by my chains reminding me how to do it.

 

2k1Toaster,

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I really do appreciate the information despite the moderately condescending tone. So, here is what I take away from your reply. Please correct me if you feel that this is an inaccurate assessment.

1. Traction control is not similar to anti-lock brakes. Anti-lock brakes attempt to apply maximum braking force by limiting wheel slip, thus reducing braking distance dramatically and helping to keep the driver and car safe. Traction control is not intended to provide maximum possible acceleration without wheel slip.

2. The purpose of traction control is to protect the transaxle from the big, bad, high-torque electric motor.

3. It is theoretically possible to make a car with traction control perform in exactly the same conditions as the same car without traction control provided that one is perfectly able to avoid ever engaging the traction control system.

4. The car may be so much worse than cars without traction control at getting up slippery hills that true snow tires, rather than all-weather tires, and even chains may be required in a region where I have never needed them in the several decades of my adult life. The chains may be a good suggestion to avoid having to replace the car with one that gets much worse gas mileage. Do you know what happens when the tires do slip in between the spots where the chains are? Will traction control still kick in at those milliseconds, voiding the efficacy of the chains completely?

5. By the very definition of what the system is intended to do, i.e. limit potential damage to the car without regard for possibly stranding the owner, any car with traction control, especially one that does not have a way to disable the traction control, must be at best no better than any car without traction control at climbing slippery hills, all else being equal.

I will also add that traction control presumably saves lives on flat slippery roads at speed by keeping the car in control. This is a huge win. Though, this is somewhat tangential to the discussion of how to get up a slippery hill in a car with traction control.

I would also like to make the very important point that while you do keep the notes on the proper incantation for disabling traction control in your Gen 2 Prius with you, just in case, The Gen 3 allows no such incantation. Therefore, while the Gen 3 may or may not be better than the Gen 2 when both have traction control enabled, it must be noted that in that "just in case" condition of needing to disable the system, the Gen 3 is guaranteed to be worse.

So, now I will give my more informed opinion of traction control based on your unabashed but ineffective sales pitch of it above.

Traction control is fundamentally flawed not only in its design, but right from the actual specification. Those who specified the functionality and purpose of the system were trying only to save lives at speed. This they did. However, they failed to recognize that the very reason people get into their cars, even in wintry conditions, is still to get from point A to point B. If the only point were to save lives, by far the most effective way is not to drive at all in these conditions.

Here is what traction control needs in the next generation of the system, i.e. one that recognizes the fundamental purpose of cars.

1. Traction control, when going up a hill, possibly as indicated by pressing a button on the dash if this is truly different than its other functions, must perform as anti-lock brakes.

When cars did not have anti-lock brakes, someone like you 2k1Toaster would presumably berate other drivers for "hulk smashing" the brake pedal rather than pumping the brakes and maintaining traction. Now, with anti-lock brakes, "hulk smashing" the brake pedal is the documented and approved fastest possible way to stop your car.

Traction control could easily be made in the same way as anti-lock brakes to apply maximum driving force without wheel spin.

2. If the big, bad, high torque, electric motor is a problem for acceleration in slippery conditions, especially so much so that it can damage the transaxle, there is no reason why the next generation of traction control could not simply disable the electric motor in such conditions, if necessary. Duh. More likely, an anti-spin device similar to anti-lock brakes would be more than capable of delivering only so much power as could be tolerated in the current conditions.

3. With these changes, the correct documented way to get up the steepest possible hill in the worst possible conditions that the car is capable of climbing would indeed be to "hulk smash" the gas pedal and let the anti-wheel-spin robot do its thing. This would be completely analogous to the change in driving style dictated by anti-lock brakes, a recognition that machines can perform some tasks better than humans. Just as anti-lock brakes shorten stopping distances over the best human driver, just as cruise control maintains a constant speed better than any human driver for hours on end, so too should a traction control system be intended to perform better than any human at avoiding getting stuck in slippery conditions.

That would be truly helpful.

So, thank you again for the detailed reply. If we do get a snow dump in New Jersey, I may try your parking lot idea. I used to do that long ago. But, with owning four used camrys back to back, the performance was so similar that I never felt the need. Perhaps I'll keep my eye out for a parking lot with a steep hill somewhere in it so that I can play with the uphill.

 

Got a gen 2 and a gen 3, without studs the gen 2 is iffy, with studs it's as good as the(studded) gen 3, minus the extra horsepower, yes the gen 3 without studs is better then the gen2 without studs, studs are the equalizer...

 

Apologies. I should have prefaced that I am an engineer.

Correct that traction control is not intended to provide maximum possible acceleration without wheel slip. However, I think it is similar to ABS. ABS can kick in on an iced surfaced with light braking. When it kicks in, it does not apply maximum pressure, it just modulates the braking at the force requested while preventing the wheel from locking up.

That is the main reason on the Prius. This is not true for all traction control.

Yes. It is also possible to get better traction with traction control vehicles, however IMHO not on the Prius since it's main purpose is protection not traction. Perhaps it should be called "HSD Protection Control" on the Prius. There are times like on a gravelled road on a curve where a non-TC car would slip and oversteer best case, spin-out worst case. A Prius in a similar situation would cut power allowing the user to know traction is loss and lose speed but probably not oversteer as much. With all wheel drive the steering would be best.

Possible. However I have made it up and down the Rockies with balding all season's on the Prius during white out blizzards where chain laws are in effect for trucks and the passes are being closed as I drive through them. And my Prius is more aggressive than yours, so I would guess yours is capable. However, I do not own a 30, only a 20 so my experience is as such.

Chains are good to carry in any vehicle. There are some roads that when flashing signs light up you can be ticketed for driving without chains. So in this area, it is a good idea to have them even if you don't use them.

With good chains, there is never a time when there is not chain in contact with the ground. When I tested my chains, I was very surprised at how grippy they were in some heavy wet snow. It was performing like my old Subaru which is a huge compliment. Obviously you still only have 2 wheel drive so don't expect to get out of everything, but if you stay on the road, you will be fine. And the chains will help you stay on the road in the first place.

False because the protection of the traction control is unique to the Prius (and camry hybrid I believe). It is different on other vehicles like our Lexus RX450h which is essentially a Toyota hybrid with all wheel drive. That will never slip up, it performs awesome. Much better then anything else. The real awesomeness comes when you combine traction control with vehicle stability control. Taking that Lexus around the parking lot going fast and turning fast in horrible traction conditions, it would not fish out. It only spun out once when I did a full lock turn at 30mph, and it spun around 180 degrees almost exactly and stopped. Otherwise nomatter what I did, the car would beep and correct and it would continue in control.

Agreed. However it can also be dangerous if you drive with small margins. As an example lets take a dry gravel covered paved road as an example. Shortly after a snow when all that gravel is still on the roads, but no snow/ice left. You are waiting to turn left out of a shopping plaza or something with no light. You see an opening that you could make, but you would have to jam it. So you jam it, the wheel spins, you lose acceleration and buck, and now you are in the middle of the road and your window of opportunity have passed. Possible collision unless the other drivers put their brakes on. It can be argued that this is poor driving. However in heavily populated areas or even just high traffic areas, you might only get 2 or 3 seconds fo opportunity every 2 red light cycles as the cars both directions are stopped and this may be required.

There has to be a way. It is required to test the vehicle on a dynometer or smog emission testing. It may not be the same or advertised, but it is there somewhere. That is the real reason it exists. Not to disable traction control for driving but to disable traction control for testing of the transaxle and other tests that may require the wheels to be moving different speeds (like when the car is stationary on roller wheels, or in the air spinning wheels freely).

I assume your comments are directed not at traction control systems in general, but just the specific system as implemented on the Prius and camry hyrbids as those are unique to protection and not really traction.

Taking out the ABS braking error, this is still impossible. The design of the hybrid synergy drive is a planetary gearset with 2 electric motors and the engine. They are directly coupled with no way to disengage or clutch out. They are forever connected and will forever rotate in sync with one another.

This is available on vehicles. For instance the Lexus RX450h. It is a different system designed for a different purpose. My guess is that because the HSD operates a few hundred volts higher than the Prius, the potential voltage spike in a no-grip to grip situation is less of a problem in percentage of nominal voltage so it can be absorbed safely. I would be curious how the CT200h performs as it has the same hybrid system as the Prius but with a sport mode that can boost the voltage instead of just a power mode which remaps the throttle.

Even when you know the car, having fun in emptied parking lots never gets old! Just make sure to find one with few lamp posts... I knew a guy in highschool that did it with his jeep (which spun out like crazy) and he spun out right into a cement barrier with a lamp post attached. Destroyed the entire side of his jeep!

 

I thought you might be someone technical. I'm a geek. No harm; no foul.​

​

​

​

Interesting. I have not encountered this yet. However, I'd also say that I have not seen traction control behave this way. This is the first car I've owned with either ABS or traction control.​

​

​

​

Please do assume all comments I make are only about Prii, and gen 3 in particular. I was not aware of the difference in other cars.​

​

​

​

Thanks for the warning. I'll be careful of that.​

​

​

​

Toyota swears there isn't. If you find the way, please please please post it!​

​

​

​

1. No error. I want exactly the behavior of ABS in reverse.​

​

2. Obviously, the electric motor can run when the ICE does not. Further, there is no reason that the electric motor could not be set to spin without providing power, if that is required by the linkage between the two. But, this makes no sense since the electric motor can definitely provide power while the ICE remains still. The ICE can even spin to slow the car down, in the case of engine braking, when no power is being delivered to the wheels.​

​

3. I also said that it should not be necessary to disable the electric motor. Certainly, the anti-spin-bot could just reduce the power from either or both engines to the point when the tires are not slipping. So, regardless of the mechanism, it should most definitely be possible to create a system that would provide the same exact effects of anti-lock braking for acceleration.​

​

​

​

That is truly depressing. Given this information, I no longer think that Toyota have merely made a mistake in their thinking. I now think that they are actively negligent for crippling Prii in this way.​

​

​

​

And yet, it completely defeats the purpose of having bought a high-mileage car ... almost as effectively as driving one to go to the equally environmentally unconscious activity of downhill skiing. Damn!​

​

P.S. What's the correct way to do quoting on this site? Standard bbcode doesn't seem to do it. And, I see no "reply with quote" button. What's the code here to attribute the quote to someone? (I'm a retired middleware geek, not a web designer.)​