Gasbuddy Poll: "Would you consider an electric or hybrid for your next vehicle?"

Where are you getting $10k from? Here are the current truecar.com quotes for my zipcode:

Ford Fiesta SE Hatch Ecoboost: $17,317
Toyota Prius C One: $18,016
Ford Focus SE Hatch Auto: $17,443 (doesn't appear that ecoboost is offered on Focus hatch)
Toyota Prius Two: $20,968

So it seems like the Prius is $3500 more than the Focus, and the C is $699 more than the Fiesta. Using expected fuel costs from fueleconomy.gov the C saves $550 per year vs the Fiesta, and the liftback saves $700 per year vs. the Focus. So on fuel savings alone the C breaks even in just over a year, and the liftback breaks even in 5 years.

If you factor in additional savings from differing rates of depreciation, insurance costs, etc, by Consumer Reports estimates the liftback IV saves you almost $2k in the first year over vs the Focus, and the Prius C saves you $1500 in the first year vs. the Fiesta.

Rob

 

Rob, spare your breath, TH apparently is ignoring every post written by others...

 

Whatever.

DBCassidy

 

I'm not sure where you are getting your pricing but the prius c one you posted is way under msrp and way under the price it is at dealers Yes sure delete the split fold down seats, down grade the seat material, get rid of cruise and go with the one, but you have to include destination charges and get it at least to dealer invoice, otherwise you are as bad as troy. Then why go with the ecoboost if its about initial cost or tco. That base engine makes it less expensive.

Here we go
New 2014 Toyota Prius c Price Quote w/ MSRP and Invoice
New 2014 Ford Fiesta Price Quote w/ MSRP and Invoice

On true car pricing the SE fiesta (the one most buy, you know with the cruise control) is $14,500 the prius c one with the down graded seats is $19,600. A difference that people see of around $5K depending on what you want. Most people are going to add a automatic transmission to the fiesta, and upgrade from the base prius c.

Compare Side-by-Side

According to fuel economy.gov you save $3250 with the prius c. If you are going to do a 5 year loan, that prius c is going to cost you only a little more a month. After those 5 years the prius c is going to be cheaper. Paying cash? If you have enough cash to pay cash the odds are you are going to get a nicer car than the fiesta.

Now if you like a manual, and want the minimum stuff required for that ecoboost 1L, and you like manual transmissions, then the $1K for the fuel economy package is not a bad deal, but ... that is only 26% in Europe, and likely much smaller in the US. In the US those takers are going to spend even more and get the bigger ecoboost engine in the ST.

Lots of choices, and if the aqua drive train was available in the fiesta people might buy it. But there are many things people like about the fiesta more than the prius c, and its not just a matter of drive train. My acquaintances in this low tco space have bought 3 fits, 1 versa, and 1 prius c. The versa seems to win the tco battle (great dealer discount), junked an old ford ranger, so gas savings just about covers the loan. The fit seems to win by swallowing up stuff like a pickup truck and fun to drive.

small car sales statistics for the US.
Small Car Sales In America - December 2013 And 2013 Year End - GOOD CAR BAD CAR

 

Ford just announced the Focus 1.0 is coming to the US in winter 2014. It appears the price tag will be 19,000 (taxed). So that's still 7 thousand cheaper than a new Prius at ~ 26,000 taxed.

No word on MPG yet but car reviewers estimate 35 mpg combined, which means you'd have to drive the Prius 260,000 miles to save $7000 (the difference in initial purchase price). 260,000 miles is the breakeven point.

The Focus is virtually the same size as the Prius, but costs much less, which is why about half the poll respondents said they'd just prefer a nonhybrid.

 

Troy, I don't really see much of a market in america for a 1L ecoboost focus. In europe with the different taxation rules, the popularity of the focus, sure. But your cost argument makes no sense in america. You save $750 in fuel over 5 years (maybe if you baby it) and pay $1000 up front for a slower 3-cylinder engine. Why not just stick to the base if you are going for tco, or go with the fiesta which at least weighs less, so the engine is not as much of a dog. One of the reasons people don't pick the prius is its not fun to drive, that three banger has got to be bad compared to the base engine. When you go to sell it, I am sure all that ecoboost premium will be gone in depreciation.

Compare Side-by-Side

Now it is true you will pay less for this new neutered focus, but really why? You can pick up a mazda 3 or a cruise eco that has to be more fun to drive. I'm sure my prius is more fun to drive.

Compare Side-by-Side

I really expect the next gen prius to get better mpg and be more fun to drive. Very few north americans would ever pick this 1L ecoboost focus over a prius, if they actually drive both and do the math. I would expect a prius II to depreciate less than a 1 cyl ecoboost focus in the US.

 

Not sure why you are confused, as I said these are the truecar.com dealer quotes currently offered in my zipcode (85018). I am using the Fiesta SE hatch as this is the most comparable form factor to the Prius C, though its still smaller. I chose ecoboost option when available as that seemed to be the version being discussed so far in this thread. The focus ST ecoboost was not considered as it is a performance option, not a fuel saving option.

Going from a Prius C One to a Two raises the truecar.com quote by $723 to $18,739.

Dropping the ecoboost option on the Fiesta SE hatch auto reduces the truecar.com quote $989 to $16,328. Dropping the auto trans reduces it another $994 to $15,334. Removing ecoboost increases the fueleconomy.gov Prius C fuel savings from $500 to $650 per year, going with a manual transmission increases it another $50 to $700 per year.

So the breakeven period based on sticker plus fuel only for the Prius C One would be 1.4 years over the ecoboost Fiesta, 2.6 years over the auto Fiesta, or 3.8 years over the manual. For the Prius C Two, it would be 2.6 years over the Fiesta ecoboost, 3.7 years over the Fiesta auto, and 4.8 years over the manual.

Besides fuel costs, Consumer Reports estimates the following deltas in ownership costs over 5/8 years for a Prius C Two vs. a Fiesta SES MT Hatch (closest match):
Depreciation: -$2250 / -$1750
Interest: +$500 / +$500
Insurance: -$1500 / -$2250
Sales Tax: +$100 / +$100
Maint/Repair: $0 / -$500

Total Prius C delta costs over Fiesta: -$3150 / -$3900

Using fueleconomy.gov expected fuel costs as above, total delta costs plus fuel become: -$6650 / -$9500

Consumer Reports own data is kinder to the Fiesta, resulting in a total delta costs plus fuel of: $-$5000 / -$6750

FWIW Consumer reports also estimates the tco of the Prius C as $3250 / $5250 less than the Nissan Versa Sedan over 5 / 8 years.

This will all of course vary with the specifics of an individuals situation, but the point IMHO is cheaper sticker price does not necessarily equate to lower ownership costs. And even adding fuel costs only tells part of the story.

Rob

 

Sorry, they must be much cheaper in your zip. Gulf states Toyota keep there prices firm and rips us off compared to you. I would think that would increase the number of prius c's between austin and phoenix. That was my confusion. The cheapest stripped one is really over $20K on the sticker here.
New 2014 Toyota Prius c Price Quote w/ MSRP and Invoice

New 2014 Ford Fiesta Price Quote w/ MSRP and Invoice

I see heated seats, automatic, cruise, et for $16,100 in your zip, that is higher than my zip which reflects regional differences again.

That gives you $2600 difference your zip for a better equipped but popular configured fiesta versus a prius c two. That's a much better deal on the prius c for you than for me if I was shopping, which may be part of my confusion.

Well I don't really trust consuer reports, but they tell you the honda fit is a better choice than a prius c, and have emphasized that you should not buy a prius c. The prius c sells well despite misinformation from consumer reports.

Naw. that just isn't right. If you want a manual or a trunk you can't buy a prius c like that. If you want a hybrid, you can't buy a fiesta. Fiesta's get advertised here for less than $14K, if you don't want cruise control like the prius c one, you can buy an S hatchback. They don't offer a cheap automatic transmission or a cvt, for that you want to go look at a corolla or a versa. The fiesta is more of a premium subcompact.

Compare Side-by-Side
I get $3000 in 5 years with the automatic non sfe from the site. I think you would subtract

Your number -$3150 /$600 = just over 5 years fuel savings pay for difference in price
my number -$5000/$600 = just over 8 years fuel savings pay for difference in price.
I am not sure about maintenance but I doubt that will substantially change this.

Well that is more accurate in my area, but maybe not yours.

Again I don't trust their numbers. My friend got hers for less than $12K and is getting 36 mpg. She has only changed her oil, and I really doubt insurance is higher, its likely lower than if she had bought a prius c (if it was available).

Agree completely, but you should use more realistic numbers, like you did in this post. It just didn't make sense that a fiesta was so close in price to a prius c, unless it was much better outfitted, which your choice was. I totally disagree with troy that the ecoboost 1L option is a good choice for americans. It is under-powered, and when pushed these small turbos don't get anywhere close to their rated mpg.

 

My dealer quoted much, much lower on his Fords than whatever true car claims. (The numbers I use are MSRP plus tax.)

How do you opine on the three cylinder when you've never driven it?

The three cylinder has equal horsepower & more lowend torque than the four-cylinder. I've driven both and the 4 felt like a dog, but the 3 felt strong (turbo'd). The 3 also gave me over 70 mpg in my interstate testdrive (versus 77 for the Prius). The four cylinder comes nowhere near that. I've made-up my mind the 3 is worth the extra cash for mpg & power. Americans will buy it.

It won "best engine" awards. BTW almost all the manufacturers are releasing three-cylinders this decade.

 

TCO estimates are widely inaccurate versus what I paid my car's first five years (almost $0.00 except for fuel). I am insured but my car is not, so the payment is constant regardless of model driven. I don't have interest payments.

I don't have depreciation (since I never sell my cars). Just the price, tax, gas, oil.

Also there's no logical reason why it would cost twice as much for Ford maintenance versus Prius. The TCO estimates are seemingly random with no citation why one car costs more to flush a radiator, brakes, etc versus another.

 

Hope your not on the same road as me - driving an uninsured car!!!

DBCassidy

 

I did use much lower numbers than msrp, but used the same source for both cars, and quoted a reasonable amount of equipment. You and mike seem to have had huge spreads versus reality. USE MSRP if you want, but do it fairly for both cars, and you won't get your number, you'll get something like mine.

Sorry, absolutely correct, I haven't even driven a fiesta. I do read though, and opinions formed formed by car and driver, that praises the engine design, but then ... talks about slower acceleration. Then you get things like wards that has stick shifts only selling in less than 7% of cars, the focus being higher at 10% (2012) and Ford explaining that they don't think americans will like the feel of the automatic and the 3 cylinder, so only manual will be offered.

Good of ford to offer their european engine choice but its hard to climb above that automatic transmission.

Well we will see, I mean the numbers will be out soon enough. If you will reread what I wrote, you will see that pesky thing about americans not buying a whole lot of manual transmissions. If you are in that percent, then you also need to prefer it to the turbo manual. See why I disagree with you? The better milage has to move people to manual transmissions, but you are still slow

It may be a great combination for you. Just like the cruze diesel may be a great combination for a few, but it isn't going to sell in high numbers. Last year focus + fiesta salees combined were about 300K, and about 30K were manuals. You need to get manual + 3 cylinder numbers up substantially to equal sales of a car like the prius c. I would say they are quite different segments indeed. The fiesta ecoboost manual is a well handling european upscale subcompact, while the the prius c is much more of a commuter not think about it car.

 

You've changed the argument....

You're talking Focus 1.0 sales v. Prius sales where originally I was just discussing the $7000 difference & that the Focus 1.0 will have lower lifetime cost (because it doesn't have the added expense of a battery & motors). The prius will eventually save more money, but not until it passes 260,000 miles. That's what the original poll was about: Buyers prefer nonhybrids. They prefer savings upfront.

Focus is a nonhybrid and it saves more money. I suspect the respondents are thinking the same (in general).

 

TH, you are of course free to question the accuracy of CRs numbers, but given that their data comes from a large pool of real world user data and they are using a consistent methodology and calculation across vehicles I'm inclined to put a lot more stock in the relative accuracy of their numbers than yours which seem to have neither consistency, widespread applicability, or often basis in reality.

Austin, I don't disagree. It may well be possible to get a great deal on an econo car and have lower tco than a Prius. Particularly if you get lucky with reliability. I see tco more as a tool for establishing baseline odds, rather than predicting individual results which will rarely actually turn out to be the average. From that data, the odds seem to favor a Prius, and particularly a C being one of the cheapest cars you can own and operate over time despite its higher sticker price.

FWIW I see this survey as a sign of positive progress, and the gradual evaporation of suspicion and misinformation around hybrid vehicles. 10 years ago hybrids were still a novelty, now this survey shows half of all vehicle buyers would at least consider one. Last year hybrids accounted for 3% of all US vehicle sales and growing, with almost 500,000 units sold. That's awesome!

Rob

 

Do you think, if the question was phrased a different way the outcome would be different?

For example, would you pay $50,000 for a car that needed no fuel? As compared to a similar $25,000 car.
A lot of people would likely say yes. But, of course, some people just wouldn't be able to afford it.

OK. Question #2.
Would you pay $37,500 for a car that used half as much fuel?

Mike

 

Well I thought I was changing it to be a bit more on topic Undoubtedly efficient cars like the focus 1L manual help reduce fuel consumption, and I don't really care if people buy another efficient car, but.... The topic was why more people don't consider hybrids, and its doubtful other than in talking points its because they can buy one of these frugal three cylinders stick shift cars because they sell even less.

What they do buy instead of the prius c and prius are either larger vehicles, plug ins, or economical small cars. On the larger vehicles hybrids are well represented in mid sized sedans, but are either expensive or not available on those segments. On that economical small cars we have a choice of manual and hybrid, and some want a manual some want a hybrid, but these are the minority choice. Most take automatics, and upfront costs are lower here. Since so few are buying manuals (less than 10%) in these classes I doubt that a lower power higher efficiency engine choice will change the market much.

Now lifetime cost really has to consider what you actually pay for the car and if you get what you want along with your real mileage. Most hybrid buyers are not buying for lowest possible tco.

 

For the money ( long term ); the PRIUS is the BEST hybrid on the market with a proven record; period.
Sure; their are other hybrids out there; but they are unproved on long term maintenance; statistics; safety; ect.

Time will tell.

 

Honestly I think this is what makes PC such an interesting community. It seems to me like there is no single profile that really sums up who a Prius buyer is. There are certainly plenty who fit the "tree hugger / save the planet" stereotype. But I'd say their are also substantial numbers of energy independence and low operating cost for the capabilities folks mixed in, as well as lots of folks, perhaps the majority who are some blend of those or other primary motivations.

 

There are also Prius owners honestly believe that its technology is far better than newer cars...
Someone said Ecoboost 3 cyl may be a good offer.
Well, 34.7MPG is not bad, it is...a whole less than good...
Overview: Ford - Focus - Spritmonitor.de
By the way, Prius 3gen gets 46MPG on Spritmonitor.

 

OK, you win!

I'm selling the two, paid-off, 52 MPG hybrids on our driveway to buy exactly the same Focus you are driving.

Bob Wilson