Fueleconomy.gov has the Prius Prime

Discussion in 'Prime Fuel Economy & EV Range' started by bwilson4web, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    interesting, thanks. i had no idea the range was going that high. i find it strange that no one is going 150.
     
  2. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Probably because no one wants to be seen as doing a half-hearted effort. 200 is roughly double the current affordable EVs so it's good for marketing.
     
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Due to the edit time limits, I just noticed something: Compare Side-by-Side

    metric Ioniq EV Prius Prime Volt Ioniq Blue
    1 MPGe 136 133 106 --
    2 MPG -- 54 42 58


    • Aerodynamic drag - an EV does not have an engine radiator that needs air flow.
    • Rolling and inertial drag - an ICE-only won't have the traction battery and motor weight penalty of a plug-in.
    What this means is comparing a plug-in (any plug-in) to either a pure EV or pure ICE Ioniq is really an 'apples-to-oranges/pears'. The three architectures, EV, plug-in, and ICE-only, have distinctly different drag characteristics. This blows a hole in anyone claiming: Hyundai Ioniq Roasts Toyota Prius, Chevy Bolt On Specs – DailySun

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. EV-ish

    EV-ish Active Member

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    In one corner: A 200 mile LEAF
    In the other corner: A 200 mile Tesla supported by the SuperCharger network

    If the two cars are about the same price, are you going to have any trouble deciding which one to buy ?
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I voted "Prius Prime."

    I appreciate your interest in advocating EVs. It is just like those advocating the Volt, the Ioniq, and those who once advocated the TDI diesels. Just understand facts and data may bring a different set of requirements.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #25 bwilson4web, Jan 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
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  6. inferno

    inferno Senior Member

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    With all these configurations these days it's definitely not apples to apples anymore. Volt less efficient but smaller and larger battery pack. Ioniq blue is the closest thing to the prius eco so that's a valid direct competitor.

    The ioniq ev. Ore efficient than the prime. But a direct comparison would be imagine a prius with the same pack size? Then what. The ioniq plugin which im hearing is delayed to next year is more of a direct competitor to the prime and volt. Heck it's more against the prime, energis etc

    Now I do think the prime is a competitor to the volt but the comparison is apples to pears.
     
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  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    if we are ever presented with this option, there will be many factors that go into the decision. i'm hoping the next leaf will be more practical.
    but i suspect it will be a long time before you can walk into a tesla dealer and buy a model 3 for the same price you can buy a leaf, or even a bolt, or whatever else is available 5 years from now.
     
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  8. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Same as another choice recently.......
    "Neither."

    If I HAD to choose between those two today it would be a no brainer for me.
    A second generation LEAF.

    Several years from now that choice might be different but warts notwithstanding the Leaf is a proven platform supported by an existing dealer network.
     
  9. inferno

    inferno Senior Member

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    I think one major factor that goes into cars now is technology. Ie. Android and Apple integration, what can the car do? It's odd to think that the prime premium has all these goodies and it was less than a new pip 2012 and less than my prius III 2010 after incentives.

    The prime surprises me all the time. It warned me to rest the other day from what I suspect was to go over the left or right lines so many times. I even saw an odd quick climate mode that I haven't had the time to figure out... Cool things just pop up, even the auto high beams and lights. These were no present in our 2010 which was 3k more.


    Now if Toyota messes with the tablet... Say allow a smart phone to connect and it to simulate touch but with extra apps to tell all of the cars functionality and secured open source.... We will have a huge winner
     
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It would have blown a hole in their claims if they weren't comparing the Ioniq hybrid to just the Prius, and the Electric to just the Bolt.

    depends

    There are more Nissan dealerships around to actually see the Leaf in person.
    When these cars come to market, many buyers would still opt to take their other car on long trips.
    And after Nissan incentives and Tesla options, they won't be the same price.

    For me, I'll likely need the tax incentive to get a new BEV at this point.
     
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  11. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    No - the Leaf.

    Car Brands Reliability: How They Stack Up - Consumer Reports

    #1 - Lexus
    #2 - Toyota
    ...
    #13 - Nissan
    ...
    #25 - Tesla

    Tesla is 25th of 29 - between GMC and Dodge. To me, reliability is almost everything.
     
  12. EV-ish

    EV-ish Active Member

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    Then you should pay attention to WHY and WHERE the reliability problems are, and how each company deals with them. Nissan lets a battery degrade ~ 33% before it is called a problem.
     
  13. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Well, I wouldn't buy a Leaf either (I could have bought one for $10k and didn't) but I would certainly select one over a Model 3, and not least for reliability reasons. A Model 3 is likely to be worse than a 2015 Model S (which CR's survey panned) at least at first due to it being brand new.

    Reliability is Tesla's Achilles heel. You can't be down there with GMC and Fiat especially with so few service centers (my nearest one is 21 miles away). It's also killing them with warranty costs.
     
  14. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    This will be a challenge for Tesla. Of the Model S and X owners I know, they have all reported significant repair issues, but still love their cars and brand in large part because of the Tesla service experience.

    But herein are some of the problems. Repair wait times are getting longer, sales are growing and expected to grow much faster than new service stations, and we don't know if Tesla will be as generous with their repair service with their model 3.
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    is tesla desperate for novice repair help? i need to fill some time.
     
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  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    We don't have to speculate: Compare Side-by-Side
    metric Leaf Tesla 60D BMW i3 REx Prius Prime
    1 25 mi city 112 MPGe 104 MPGe 111 MPGe 133 MPGe
    2 80% DC 30 min. 85 mi 174 mi use gas use gas
    3 gas refuel n/a n/a 5 min 7 min
    4 218 mi city delays 2 * 30 min 0 min 1 * 5 min 0 min
    5 block speed 50 mph 65 mph 63.5 mph 65 mph
    6
    7 640 mi Hwy 7 * 30 min 3 * 30 min 7 * 5 min 0 min
    8 640 mi time 9.8 + 3.5 hr 9.8 + 1.5 hr 9.8 + 0.56 hr 9.8 hr
    9 block speed 48 mph 56 mph 61 mph 65 mph

    • Prius Prime - fastest block-to-block speed in City and Hwy. Also, best MPGe for 25 mile EV.
    • Tesla 60D - fastest block-to-block speed in City.
    Both City and Hwy used 65 mph driving speed for block-to-block timing and speed. We assumed perfect placement of fast, DC chargers and gas stations. The plug-ins use only gas refueling.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #36 bwilson4web, Jan 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
  17. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    I don't know where you got 7 minutes to refuel the Prime. The pump I use at Costco produces 1 gallon every 7-8 seconds. That means the refueling process itself never takes longer than 60 seconds. I usually manage 3 minutes including driving in, getting the machine setup with my card, tank open, fill up, empty trash bag, finish, get receipt and drive away.
     
  18. inferno

    inferno Senior Member

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    Scary to see the Leaf at 85 miles range 112 MPGe...and yet there's the Volt catching up to that range. Don't know how plugin vehicles are doing it...but they are. I think if Toyota releases a more efficient solar roof Prime in the US (even if it's 3k more), they would gain more customers who can't find a plug, but may plug out in the sun either at their house or parking lot.

    And I do mean efficient, I'm not sure what the current efficiency is for the Prime with Solar, but SunPower would be one way to go...and solar technology just keeps improving. Heck, I would even go beyond the roof, put some panels angled right at the top of the windshield, maybe top of the hood. The Prime Solar roof is a very interesting concept, are there real world figures for that trim?
     
  19. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    That trim was not sold yet anywhere. Toyota claim is less than 2 miles per average day, a bit more than 3 miles in a perfect day.
     
  20. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    They will not be the same price.

    Nissan doesn't have to make any money on them. Tesla must. Base trim model 3s wont even be readily available for a while.
     
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