fuel system uses only water and air

Well I guess it all depends on what you're considering the "fuel". And it could be a nomenclature arguement, Aluminum for fuel instead of Water for fuel.

 

Something is consumed, and whatever is consumed starts with more energy than what you have left after the consumption. There is simply no way around this one simple fact. Show me the energy equations, all of the energy equations, and then I'll be convinced, or at least slightly interested.

Contrary to your earlier statement, this is not "sticking our heads in the sand." This is simple not wasting time on something that is impossible. The history of science and engineering is full of people wasting enormous amounts of time trying to do something that was easily proved to be impossible. The philosophers stone comes to mind. Wanting it really badly doesn't make it true.

Tom

 

Ok Tom, nowhere has it been suggested that you fill your car with something and then never again have to worry about it.

The history of science and engineering is also full of people wasting enormous amounts of time trying to do or find something that was easily proven to be impossible and yet it was proven so. Science and engineering is full of both groups of people and just because you start off the in wacky group doesn't mean you finish there, and that goes for the other side as well.

Plenty of scientists have been heralded as being ahead of their time and their theories accepted without resistance. Just to be proven wrong a century later by someone who was considered a kook, and now those are the theories we use today.

Yes I doubt claims people make about whatever new thing they've created, especially if they're the ones trying to sell it. But it makes me want to understand what their proccess was and it may or may not work.

As far as this water thing, I hope we can all agree that if you put enough energy into water you can split, seperate, electrolize, filter or whatever process you want to call it, into hydrogen and oxygen. Your ICE will burn the hydrogen. So it's not the process that's the problem, we all know the process works, it's the efficiency of the process. And weather or not it can be made viable.

At least that's how I've seen it so far. What do I know, could be nothing.

 

Only in Japang...

 

This water car thing is almost as hyped up as diesels.

 

ound:ound:ound:opcorn: ound:ound:ound: Good point!


When we conduct Gel-Electrophoresis in the lab, we normally use 110V, and even at that, only a VERY small amount of water is electrolyzed. Let's assume this membrane has some type of proprietary technology that enhances/catalyzes electrolysis, and therefore lowers the amount of electricity required to split the water. Okay. But you still have to recharge your battery every night from a wall plug. In our lab, the water tanks heat up, which means energy loss in the form of heat. Let's not forget the second law of thermodynamics.

So, basically this seems like a way to store energy, like a battery, except that instead of needing two separate compartments, one an anode and one a cathode, this new concept only requires one compartment. Am I understanding you correctly? If so, then this makes sense to me.

 

Bill Merchant,
Interesting video. Is the reporter a magician? (I am laughing with you)
Combustion engines, humans, plants ... we all end up with CO2 and H2O as byproducts; the most thermodynamically-favorable; the lowest-energy molecules. How can a system consume such a compound, extract energy and then expel the exact same compound? Remember Einstein's E=MC^2 ? You can't extract power if the starting material and ending material are the same. (their masses, to be correct with the physicists)

In biochemistry, we refer to the conversion of carbohydrates to CO2 and H2O was "combustion." In effect it is. It begins with oxygen and hydrogen-containing carbon chains (reduced) and oxidizes the carbon to more-thermodynamically-favorable CO2
while oxidizing the H2 to H2O. Otherwise known as "combustion." To think that you could actually start with H2O is ludicrous. So, yes as most of us have [intelligently] pointed out, the energy source must be something other than water. In the video, the reporter makes it sound like all you have to do is take a piss in the tank and "vroom vroom vroom." I don't think so. (anyone that wants to make a cartoon of a guy pissing in his gas tank, feel free to post it here) ound:

 

Bull poo and I can't believe anyone would fall for it.
The car shown is a Reva or sold as Gee Wizz in the UK. It is a battery electric, bolting a bull poo box in the back and showing someone pouring water into the box then driving it proves Jack.

If Toyota pick up the technology I'll eat my words and I'll eat a pound of jalapeño chili.

 

Agreed. There is nothing wrong with the science behind electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen and burning hydrogen to get water. You can go around that cycle indefinitely without consuming the hydrogen or the oxygen. The molecules get reused, and the net energy around the cycle is zero. All you need to make it work is enough energy to overcome the losses. This is the key to understanding all of this water car stuff: you get no energy gain going from water to hydrogen-oxygen and back to water. In fact it costs you energy. If you develop a more efficient electrolysis system or more efficient hydrogen burner it takes less energy, but it still takes energy, not gives energy.

Think of hydrogen released by electrolysis as a battery: you put energy into the electrolysis process and some of the energy is stored as hydrogen gas. The hydrogen gas can be burned later and some of the stored energy converted into mechanical motion. There are losses in both conversions. The only reason to do this is if the advantages of hydrogen as a fuel outweigh the losses. It's the same with a battery.

Tom

 

So there may be some interesting technologies in this, but I think we can all agree that water isn't the source of energy. Energy must be originating from some other material.


On this topic, someone, somewhere (different forum?) suggested it could be taking ambient heat from the environment. I suppose that's possible, as plenty of endothermic reactions occur, as long as there's a net increase in entropy - like dissolving salt in water (water gets colder as it's an endothermic reaction).

I have serious doubts that there's enough ambient heat around that thing to produce 300 watts of power.

 

"The system can generate power just by supplying water and air to the fuel and air electrodes, respectively, the company said at the press conference, which took place June 12, 2008, at the Osaka Assembly Hall."

It sounds like some kind of metal air battery and yes; some kind of material is being used up and would need to be replaced often.

 

yeah you are right, ""Everything that can be invented has been invented." -- Charles H. Duell, U.S. Commissioner of Patents, in 1899."


except, no one told them about it:

Dr. Eugene Mallove -- Remembering Cold Fusion's Slain Champion

 

That's actually a good quote to go with the cars running on water stories, because it's also fake. In fact, his 1899 report to Congress noted the increasing number patents being issued and said, "May not our inventors hopefully look to the Fifty-sixth Congress for aid and effectual encouragement in improving the American patent system?" which doesn't sound like someone who thinks everything has already been invented.

 

All of these water vehicles are just inefficient electric vehicles.

Electricity / energy from the battery splits water into hydrogen and oxygen gas. The hydrogen is either burned with atmospheric oxygen in an ICE or a fuel cell, yielding water (vapor).

So it's energy + 2xH2O -> 2xH2 + O2 -> 2xH2O + energy

It's not surprising seing the vehicle go. There's nothing break-through about the chemistry above.

What I want to see is how FAR the vehicle will go. My prediction is, it will stop with a dead battery, unlike a regular car.

 

oh my... is that water thing fake? is it not possible? is it just a "conspiracy theory" is it just <insert yout favored conditioning of minds here>

how about if you educate your self a bit?

start with Suppressed Inventions by Jonathan Eisen


do you think that suppression of E95 battery, killing of EV1, hiking of oil prices, war on terror and global warming scaremongering, suppression of natural remedies (among million of other things) are all things that are rare as some cosmic accidents?

time to wake up buddy, various forms of technologies, medical treatments and incredible inventions were suppressed through out the history.
it is DOCUMENTED, not a theory
http://www.amazon.com/Suppressed-Inventions-Jonathan-Eisen/dp/0399527354


i guess you never heard of
Secrecy of certain inventions and withholding of patent act


that (is estimated) suppresses thousands of inventions:


§181. Secrecy of certain inventions and withholding of patent Whenever publication or disclosure by the publication of an application or by the grant of a patent on an invention in which the Government has a property interest might, in the opinion of the head of the interested Government agency, be detrimental to the national security, the Commissioner of Patents upon being so notified shall order that the invention be kept secret and shall withhold the publication of the application or the grant of a patent therefor under the conditions set forth hereinafter.
Whenever the publication or disclosure of an invention by the publication of an application or by the granting of a patent, in which the Government does not have a property interest, might, in the opinion of the Commissioner of Patents, be detrimental to the national security, he shall make the application for patent in which such invention is disclosed available for inspection to the Atomic Energy Commission, the Secretary of Defense, and the chief officer of any other department or agency of the Government designated by the President as a defense agency of the United States.
Each individual to whom the application is disclosed shall sign a dated acknowledgment thereof, which acknowledgment shall be entered in the file of the application. If, in the opinion of the Atomic Energy Commission, the Secretary of a Defense Department, or the chief officer of another department or agency so designated, the publication or disclosure of the invention by the publication of an application or by the granting of a patent therefor would be detrimental to the national security, the Atomic Energy Commission, the Secretary of a Defense Department, or such other chief officer shall notify the Commissioner of Patents and the Commissioner of Patents shall order that the invention be kept secret and shall withhold the publication of the application or the grant of a patent for such period as the national interest requires, and notify the applicant thereof. Upon proper showing by the head of the department or agency who caused the secrecy order to be issued that the examination of the application might jeopardize the national interest, the Commissioner of Patents shall thereupon maintain the application in a sealed condition and notify the applicant thereof. The owner of an application which has been placed under a secrecy order shall have a right to appeal from the order to the Secretary of Commerce under rules prescribed by him.
An invention shall not be ordered kept secret and the publication of an application or the grant of a patent withheld for a period of more than one year. The Commissioner of Patents shall renew the order at the end thereof, or at the end of any renewal period, for additional periods of one year upon notification by the head of the department or the chief officer of the agency who caused the order to be issued that an affirmative determination has been made that the national interest continues so to require. An order in effect, or issued, during a time when the United States is at war, shall remain in effect for the duration of hostilities and one year following cessation of hostilities. An order in effect, or issued, during a national emergency declared by the President shall remain in effect for the duration of the national emergency and six months thereafter. The Commissioner of Patents may rescind any order upon notification by the heads of the departments and the chief officers of the agencies who caused the order to be issued that the publication or disclosure of the invention is no longer deemed detrimental to the national security.

35 USC 181, Secrecy of certain inventions and withholding of patent (BitLaw)



as you can see..... there is more than meets the eye

 

Seems like there's never any shortage of IDIOTS who will believe every new perpetual motion machine that comes down the pike. What surprises me are the number of speculations above about plausible mechanisms for the water car. It's a goddamned FRAUD pure and simple, aimed at taking advantage of all the IDIOTS out there who will invest in it and make the con artists rich. Just like all the other water for gas scams. But we shouldn't be surprised. Wishful thinking is the foundation of the religious crap that most people are brainwashed with from the cradle. If you can believe in prayer, water for gas will seem a trivial matter.

 

yes, you are right!
if only IDIOTS were able to read and think for themselves -- the world would be lot better place.
Idiots should not talk about perpetual motion without understanding
how stupid they sound by their "debunking" logic, because using their same logic the universe is the greatest "perpetual motion machine", as they call it.
They would read Tesla's, Morey's, Reich's, Reif's (and many others) works and then they may be able to begin to understand how idiotic their
idea of what is possible what is not is.

IDIOTS would know that those dirty, wasteful, 15 % efficient ICEs are not the best technology that we should use, and they would use whatever of their brains is still functional after daily downloads by the mass propaganda machines to conclude that:
A: they should start reading more
B: they should start thinking for themselves
C: they should immediately stop paying to be brainwashed/programmed/dumbed-down
D: they should stop being total IDIOTS by proclaiming that something cannot work and that such thing is a fraud, unless they investigated those claims themselves

But, what do you expect from idiots who are unable to read and think, who think that the all that they know is how things really are?


no matter how well a subject is documented -- idiots would always be acting like idiots, unable to even understand that there is a difference between con artists and frauds and technology that is suppressed.

lane:lane:lane:lane:

 

So you believe that you can extract energy from water by converting it to H and O and then back to water? I guess you don't believe in the second law of thermodynamics.

 

The second law of thermodynamics, according to Flanders & Swan:

You can't move heat from a cooler to a hotter;
you can try it if you like but you far better not-er
because' the heat in the cooler will get hotter as a rule-er
and that's a physical law!

Heat is work and work's a curse
and all the heat in the universe
is gonna cool down because' it can't increase
and there'll be no more work and there'll be perfect peace.
That's entropy, man, entropy!

(And it also means that perpetual motion machines do not work. If your output is the same as your input (e.g. water in and water out) you cannot extract work from the process.)

 

when did i say that i believed that?