FORD revises MPG for 6 cars

Cars are just one big bag of trade-offs.

I'm willing to bet that Gen2 PiP has a longer EV range when it comes out, and no complaints of lost synergy will be voiced.

 

That's a loaded statement. There's basically a 100% chance capacity will increase. That's a normal part of the generation process. By how much is the real topic of interest. As for synergy, what does "lost" equate to? There's a 100% chance the overall efficiency will increase anyway. We already know thermal efficiency improvement is a goal; we even have a rough idea of how much. We also know that software improvements are inevitable.

My question is... Who would do the voicing?

 

John, don't take this the wrong way, but I have no idea what you are trying to say.
USB seems to think that a ~ 12 mile EV range is the perfect range to match to a Prius to make a PiP. That more or less would result in an overall increase in energy/distance expended.

Truthfully, it seems a mistake to generalize for all drivers; but besides that, I doubt that a 20 mile EV range PiP will be an energy hog.
Just my opinion, but I think the current range was a result of practical considerations like market price, R&D, and development time. If the price is right, people are going to LOVE another 100 lbs and 10 miles of EV in their PiPs.

I know I will, since I guesstimate 220 Wh/mile in EV and 100 MPG petrol for my driving.

 

I thought USB said that Toyota's choice of size/weight of battery to engine efficiency was a superior choice. If the next gen Prius PHV chooses a more profligate engine and a much heavier and bulkier battery, he (and I) are all wrong. If they continue to choose batteries that do not consume all the luggage space matched to the 'best' engine, we are right. (where best is in MPGs)

Until someone makes a Plug in station wagon/van/pickup that does better than my v, I am just a spectator.

 

So Jimbo, you do not think Toyota is going to make C-max ?

Way to go out on a limb

 

Personally, I'd rather see the threads merged and the main one be here. Seems like threads in the "Other cars" area are often ignored. After all, it affects 3 non-plugin hybrids and 2 PHEVs.

Ford lowers MPG ratings on six vehicles - Autoblog has an easier to read table than Ford's page.

Video at

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And, this is the 2nd downward revision for the C-Max hybrid. First was at Ford C-Max hybrid rerated at 43 mpg, owners offered rebates. So it went from (combined) 47 mpg -> 43 -> 40.

This isn't that surprising given http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=371553 when they compared the (then) 47 mpg combined C-Max hybrid to the 42 mpg combined Prius v wagon yet the C-Max lost...

 

The current PiP with 12 miles is a perfect balance for the current gen/technology.

There are many moving parts going into next gen. NS4 hinted a dedicated platform so more battery can be packed. If SiC transistor make it into it, you'll get even more range with similar charging time.

Battery cost would also go down, so more reason for more range next gen. Grid will be cleaner justifying more EV range.

Next gen will be another engineering art of balancing, with different set of weights.

 

I do not think Toyota is going to make an EV with an engine. I think they will make a hybrid that can be plugged in for a little more range.

So long as they design it to work as a car, and to work as a hybrid, I m not opposed to more range. Speaking about not going out on a limb, I predict Toyota's MPG estimates will be attainable by their owners.

 

Only a Volt owner would take that bait.

 

Toyota established the approach, keeping physical size small enough to prevent a large cargo-carrying capacity sacrifice while at the same time keeping it affordable. Lithium chemistry will improve, as will the software controlling usage & longevity. The result will in a bump up range. It will fit Prius PHV well. That's how it will be able to penetrate deep into the mainstream.

Whether or not Toyota will also offer some type of higher capacity choice is another topic. Successfully achieving high-volume sales with Prius PHV opens the door for that opportunity.

Remember, we've seen that priority has been given to delivering a solution for the masses, rather than catering to a niche audience as with other automakers. Notice how important production-cost has been? There's no reason to believe that intent has changed. In fact, things like pursuing wireless recharging helps to confirm ordinary consumers are being targeted.

My 73 MPG average is double the efficiency an equal-sized traditional automatic gas vehicle could deliver and quite a bit cleaner. How much more is really needed to achieve high-volume sales?

 

Gee ... who'd a thunk ~ once was 47mpg ... now? Well they only missed it by what ... TEN (10) mpg ? ! ?
bah ... what's 20%

So Ford's gona throw owners a bone.
What if they want a refund? I do love the energi .... but I must of got baggage from that damn arrogant sales dude, back when the energi was 1st released .... This sales guy was flaunting a charge sustain mode number that could no way in hell be real. Still - this bit of bad news is nowhere near as bad as the Honda hybrid batteries being overworked causing premature failures
.

 

So, C-Max Hybrid was lowered from 47 to 43 mpg last August, now lowered again to 40 mpg?
Compare Side-by-Side

Ford lowers fuel economy rating on C-Max hybrid 8.5% to 43 mpg

Compare Side-by-Side

 

C-Max and MKZ are 2 MPG lower than Prius v and ES 300h.

Fusion hybrid is still 1 MPG higher than Camry hybrid but slower though.

 

It is actually 2 PHVs, 2 hybrids, and 1 straight ICE car that had an adjustment for a total of 6 models with apology cash. All three Fiesta models had adjustments, but one of them ended up with the same combined number as previous.

 

Shame on you, Ford.

It goes without saying, If it is too good to be true, it is NOT true.

Then again, how about all of the quality issues with this product?

 

Um.... Ford did already correct the Cmax numbers a year ago (down from 47/47). I guess you didn't realize. And let's not forget how Hyundai & Kia were caught lying about MPG and had to downgrade all their cars. (Is there such a thing as an honest car company anymore?) Doubtful.

 

Hynudai and Kia also had to revise their MPGS on all cars. Is there no longer such a thing as an honest carmaker? Doubtful.

No. Electric drive is more efficient, so the car should be biased to more electric power.

 

Currently the Prius drivetrain sends 28% of torque to the e-motor. By your reasoning, sending more would result in a more efficient car.

 

Don't just look at the vehicle efficiency. That's what EPA MPGe figure is. Look at the bigger picture.

Electricity production and distribution is about 33% efficient.

Gasoline production and distribution is about 83% efficient.

EPA has beyond tailpipe emission site that takes account of both vehicle and upstream fuel production.

Volt would emit 250 gram of CO2 per mile, using weighted (per kWh) grid average.

C-Max Energi would emit 270 gram/mile.

PiP would emit less (220 gram/mile) despite being less bias toward electric.

PiP being balanced allowed for lower total emission despite being a bigger car with more spacious interior.

 

The belief that "more electricity is better" will continue to be a challenge to deal with for years to come.

People just assume that's true and don't give it another thought. They have no idea what emissions come from electricity creation or transmission. Some who do recognize smog-related emission simply state they've been reduced dramatically over the past few decades, thinking all is well now. Many still don't believe carbon emissions are any type of problem either. It's a greenwashed mess.

Oddly, it is rather fortunate that traditional vehicles continue to advance. That engine-efficiency technology will pay off later. We're seeing that from Toyota already. Being able to take advantage of the engine by being able to run it briefly and at highly optimized rates makes the balance with electricity is what makes it better.

The idea of sacrificing electricity for the sake of never starting the engine is a mindset that's counter-productive. It doesn't actually help us overcome all the problems we face. It only looks better when you choose not to consider the big picture. Balance is very important.