Ford C Max, Prius killer?

Since I am not in a hurry to buy a car I will wait for the C-Max to come out so I can see it and test drive it. I would also like to test drive the Prius V again and perhaps some others. I was interested in the VW Jetta Sportswagen TDI as well but around here there is 30 cent difference between diesel and gas, so maybe not! Camry Hybrid #2 is still a real possibility, we love that car.

I have been reading the UK auto press reviews of the C-Max, which are uniformly favorable. The reviews are very complimentary of Ford products generally. As some have mentioned, reliability is my number one concern with Ford, I have purchased one Ford in my life and I was not happy with the reliability of that vehicle (a 1994 Explorer). But the company appears to be much better managed now, so we'll see.

 

Ditto. If the local Toyota dealership hadn't tried to rob me blind on the price, i'd probably have a 2012 Prius V on the drive right now. As it is, i'm going to wait and see what the c-max is like when it hits the lots. The plugin c-max is particularly interesting - assuming they don't stick a huge premium on the price, like Toyota did with the plugin Prius, and Ford themselves have done with the Focus electric.

 

Do you consider the price of the base model plug-in huge?

 

Compared to a Prius 3, which is closest in spec? Absolutely. $6500 buys a whole lotta gas.

 

Good thing people don't buy Prius exclusively to save money on gas; otherwise, there wouldn't be a package 4 or 5.

Also note that the price itself is important, not just a premium. Being close to the $30,000 mark is an appeal factor... hence so much curiosity about Energi's price.

 

So you personally bought a plugin Prius, but you're saying saving gas didn't factor into the reason for buying it?
Either you're easily confused by salesmen when shopping for cars, or you're just plain pranking me.

I''ll go with being pranked... If not for the gas savings, what, exactly, do Prius owners by them for?

They are a huge number of cars that are better equipped, cheaper to buy, have more load capacity, have a better ride, are better looking (though i admit, that's a personal opinion) and are just plain more practical.

But you claim the Prius, and specifically, the Prius plugin, is bought for reasons other than saving gas?
That's the funniest thing i've heard in a while.

As for price, it is generally important for most people. Sure, i realize there are people willing to pay more - i didn't say otherwise. What i did say is like for like, a "base" Prius plugin and a similar specc'd regular Prius are $6500 apart. Granted there are slight differences, but a larger, differently designed battery, and an extra filler cap on the otherside of the car do not come to $6500 extra. Not when you are mass producing.

No, what you are paying for is the "cool factor". That and having to park for 3hr waiting for it to charge. Unless you pony up another couple of grand to buy a 240v charger and have it installed. Then you only have to sit around for an hour and a half.

Hopefully we have the crazy talk out of the way. Not buying a Prius for gas savings!!! Dude, you should do standup.

Anyway, I'm still waiting to see what the C-Max Energi will come out to price wise. Back on planet earth, where gas price IS a factor to consider when shlepping a couple of kids - and all their stuff - around the city, the C-Max Energi could be just the ticket. My local Ford dealer tells me the 16th is when the C-Max officially becomes available, hopefully more info will come out about the Energi version on that date.

 

Of course it factored in, but that certainly was not the only reason.

 

Saving gas and saving money on gas are two different things.

We all know we pay a premium or the car that typically does not pay off in gas savings for 5-7 years. But we buy expensive high mileage cars to cut our gas use which is good for US (no oil import deficit, no oil wars, no BP Gulf disasters) and good for world including our kid's world years on (less of a carbon footprint).

I'm a lease or buy (if there's a zero finance charge offer like on my Ford Escape hybrid). I never get to the save money on gas point. My next car will be zero or near zero gas car and I won't save any money on gas vs. buying something cheaper but I'll be doing a lot of good stuff.

 

My calculations showed my cost for a Prius v 5 versus a Camry SE 4cyl (all options) was practically the same after 4 years. The v carries more stuff and should gas prices go higher, I start coming out ahead. For the same reasons ProximalSuns listed, I prefer the higher mileage option. If we all wanted to save money, we'd be driving 5 year old Yaris and renting bigger vehicles when we needed them, rather than buying new cars that push $30k.

There are all sorts of things that people buy without a payback. Does the carbon fiber road bike frame really make a difference in a non-professional like myself? No. I'd be just as well off with aluminum. But I like it and it is worth the money to me. I also use Apple computers. I find them far more pleasant to use than the PCs I use day to day at work. I have a house with a spare bedroom and an office despite just being 2 of us (for another few weeks!) Spend your money on what you like and enjoy yourself.

 

C-max looks impressive per the numbers Ford keeps pushing however I really think they are not comparing apples to apples on all the stats. (stats pulled from New Cars, Used Cars, Car Reviews and Pricing - Edmunds.com)
The C-max is only 173.6 inches long. The V is 181.7 and the Gen 3 Prius is 176.4. It is shorter than the Gen 3.
This also applies to the wheel base.
V = 109.4 , Prius Gen3 = 106.3 and C-max at 104.3. Again, C-max is smaller than Gen 3.
This equates to space behind the rear seats not being up to the V either.
V = 34.3, Prius Gen3 = 21.6 and C-max = 24.5. Which is C-max supposed to be competing with again?

Ford is claiming 47 mpg c/h, however they appear to be in the wrong class of Hybrids. Their size seems to match them better up against the Gen3 which gets 51c/48h which is still better.

It will still be a good comparison type vehicle to see in action since Ford has been purchasing parts of the Toyota HSD system via another party for years now for their Escape Hybrid.

 

Length is not the only dimension though. The C-Max is taller than either Prius. This translates into greater headroom in the front and the back seat, even as compared to the C. It's also why the C-Max has significantly more cargo room than a Liftback (though not the V). As a taller driver, I appreciate the headroom. It also has a significantly greater curb weight than the V, which might translate into a nice, solid ride. Certainly it's got more horsepower, which will likely lead to faster acceleration, though I haven't seen any 0-60 stats yet.

The C-Max also has an optional power liftgate which is nice, though it's got some crazy sonar-ish back up warning system as opposed to a camera. Chalk that down to one of the Toyota and one for the Ford. Meanwhile, I find both Entune and Ford Sync with My Touch terrible, and if my recent experience renting a Ford Focus is any indicator, I think I'd prefer anything to that.

I'll have to drive a C-Max to see, but I've rented a Prius, and I really disliked the numb steering, the hard-to-control breaking, the uncomfortable seats, and the ridiculous horizontal bar across the rear window that messes with visibility.

Again, in a vacuum, I'd much rather buy a Toyota than a Ford, but when it comes to features and aesthetics, I think I prefer the C-Max to either Prius.

 

I don't think anyone really cares about length anymore

We have passenger room - c-max
cargo space prius v, but c-max is bigger than prius liftback
acceleration power/weight c-max
fuel economy c-max, although prius liftback is better than c-max

handling is likely c-max, but you need a test drive for that Then it comes down to ford versus toyota, and styling, driver position, instrumentation, etc.

The old sync is pretty good, I haven't driven the new sync. It may just be the driver needs to get used to it. The c-max does have a back up camera as an option, it also has automatic parking as an option. The prii gets the option of radar cruze control which is not available on c-max, and the less expensive sun roof option does not have solar panels.

Definitely there is enough similarity, that the car needs a test drive, and a real quote from a dealer instead of list price. The c-max seems like its a good option for people that like the prius, but want something that is a little different with more space.

 

47/47/47 is impressive with the heavier, bigger wheeled, higher powered, less aerodynamic car. The gen 3 prius though is better in fuel economy.

In the c-max, ford is buying lithium cells from panasonic, and assembling them into its own batteries. Panasonic is toyota's supplier also, but the prii, but for the c-max hybrid it is a different chemistry. In the prius phv the cells are likely the same as the c-max energi. Ford had been buying batteries from sanyo, which was bought by panasonic, and the new battery chemistry seem to come from the sanyo engineers. Ford has brought assembly from cell to battery in house. Toyota has always done assembly from cell to battery from its joint venture with panasonic pev.

The gen II prius and the fusion and escsape all used toyota's partially owned supplier for psd. The new c-max and fusion hybrids and energi have brought the psd in house. Toyota brought psd manufacture in house for the gen III.

The hybrid system in the ford seems half a step ahead of the gen III. It doesn't have to spin the ice until 62mph versus 42mph in the prii. This allows from pulse and glide at highway speeds The other feature that prii owners have been asking for is active grill shutters. This gives the benifit of grill blocking without the work, making the car more aero dynamic and warm up faster when it does not need engine cooling. Hopefully these two things will make the gen IV prii.

 

Since PHV is also 62 mph, that's confusing about what "gen" actually represents.

But since the 2010-2012 limit is 46, not 42, that entire comment should just be rewritten entirely.

 

Agreed!

 

Thanks for the correction on 46, not 42. Since 42 is the answer to life the universe and everything, my fat fingers seemed to hit the wrong key. Correct this if its wrong, its from memory

prius v and gen III liftback max engine off speed 46
c-max hybrid max engine off speed 62

This difference should be significant for pulse and gliders. This along with active grill shutters also may be why ford was able to get 47 hwy in the c-max hybrid, on preliminary tests, versus 40 mpg highway on the prius v, 48 prius liftback, 49 prius phv. Then again the 47 may be a mistake on ford's spec sheet. We should wait until official epa numbers come out.

On the plug ins, c-max from ford's figures which may change, mpg from c-max hybrid, ford had tbd on energi last I checked, but the prius phv is close to the liftback
Max electric speed c-max energi = 80+mph @68kw, prius phv = 62mph @38kw
Charge sustain c-max energi 47/47/47 mpg, prius phv 51 city/49 highway/50 combined mpg
Charge depletion c-max energi 20 miles @ 95 mpge, prius phv 11 miles @ 95 mpge

Again, I hope that in the gen 4, toyota pushes the prius liftback to a higher max engine off speed in the redesign. The prius gen III came out in 2009, I know because I bought one. The c-max comes out in 2012. You would expect that extra time to allow ford to improve a little.

 

Synch on my 2009 Escape Hybrid was a disaster that makes Entunes look slick. No Internet connectivity. No navigation to contacts. Finding a phone that works with it was time consuming and expensive. Microsoft guy told me to get an iPhone to get it to work. Support was non-existent. Nav maps out of date out. Ford would do its sales a favor by dumping Microsoft Synch and going Garmin for Nav.

 

I've only picked it up with rentals, I own an iphone, it worked fine.
I'm sure the one in the c-max works with android and blackberry too.

What are you doing with the internet while driving? If its your passengers, they should be using a phone, not the main console. You aren't upset that you can't text while driving well on the sync too are you? The big complaint I read about the new units are too few dedicated buttons. Its nice to hit a real physical button while driving, not just hit a touch screen or do voice commands.

I have an aftermarket pioneer head unit in my car. The toyota one just was not good enough. I do not know if the new entune has improved enough to make me happy. The old synch system would have been fine, but its a matter of personal opinion. I work with a lot of technology, which may make the interface easier for me to use than you. I will tell you that I have had more comments on my after market head unit as high tech, than the rest of the car. Its nice having voice commands to select music from my ipod

 

None who owned Synch liked it as all the abandoned users on the Synch "support" forum noted. No one who owned Synch would buy a car to get it while millions would likely avoid a car with Synch.

It makes Entunes look good.

 

Base Entune unit has voice commands for the iPod/iPhone. The top end HDD nav doesn't, though.