Flu Shot? or not?

Whenever dramatic cures are announced for diseases or conditions widely thought to have no cure, the announcement is suspect. If it appears in a peer-reviewed journal it carries some weight, and there will be attempts to replicate it, and those will be reported on, also in peer-reviewed journals. Then you have solid evidence.

When the announcement appears in a popular magazine, or a magazine with an offbeat agenda, or comes directly from a company that sells the purported remedy, its value is minimal or nil.

Any hope of a dramatic cure for a previously incurable condition will lead to research. Until such research is conducted there is no valid reason to accept the unorthodox announcement. But of course snake oil has always has plenty of customers, and so there will always be plenty of snake-oil salesmen.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 29 2007, 08:34 AM) [snapback]531901[/snapback]</div>

pharmacokinetics is your friend

 

Wow! I didn't realize what a rat's nest I was opening. I thought the main point that I was raising was that blood-clotting factors are worth checking in autistic patients. Certainly you can be autistic without any blood clotting problems. But if they are an important part of the problem, then treating them could lead to relief. The reason I mentioned this whole issue is that I thought the idea was novel, and not likely to be known by anyone who didn't follow Dr. Kunin's work.

As for the heparin, the dosage was 1000 units, twice a day, orally. Apparently enough gets through that particular patient's stomach to be effective. I know that many people with allergy and autoimmune problems have low stomach acid. The chain of events is low stomach acid, which allows undigested food to pass through the stomach, which leads to leaky gut syndrome, which allows undigested food to enter the bloodstream where it causes all sorts of havoc. Maybe normal strength stomach acid in a healthy person blocks heparin. But it doesn't seem to have blocked it in the case I reported.

I remember how h pylori couldn't possibly exist. It was medical "fact" that bacteria could not exist in the acid environment of the stomach. How many years did it take to beat down that dogma and allow effective treatment of stomach ulcers?

The effective use of heparin for autistic patients is probably so limited that it will not get any major studies. Dr. Kunin is old enough to have retired years ago, so don't watch for any major push on this topic. He has written a number of books, which should provide more insight into his experience using nutritional medicine. I've only heard him speak, and have not read the books. But if I had an autistic child, I'd read everything I could find by him, and go see him (if he's still accepting new patients).


Using vitamin D3 to support immunity is a big deal. The newsletter I mentioned above includes a reference to a study where 1100 IU of D3 prevented 77% of breast cancer. The science is strong enough now that I think there should be a major campaign to promote supplementation with 2000 IU of D3 per day for everyone. The only question I have about it is how many people will suffer needlessly while the medical/health engine shifts to utilize this knowledge. While I would hope for a few years, it will probably be more like 30 years. The researchers will have to argue over the number being 39% or 77%, or maybe even outside that range. Most of the people involved in the status quo will continue to promote their current positions. We'll hear about how toxic vitamin D is (D3 is certainly safe up to 10000 IU, and probably much higher). And that we shouldn't waste time on ineffective things when there are proven treatments available. There is nothing else currently known that is anywhere near as effective at prevention as supplemental D3. Most of the things promoted as prevention are actually detection. Prevention should mean that you don't get the problem.

 

simply put, heparin is too large a molecule and too negatively charged to absorb through the GI tract. while they're working on new formulations that may increase absorption orally, they're in early clinical trial phases right now.

in fact, as part of those clinical trials they demonstrated that heparin alone was not absorbed through the GI tract.

the effect you saw in that video was due to something unrelated to heparin. i'm not saying clotting factors aren't without their merits, i spent a lot of time studying antithrombin III so i obviously thought it was worth the time to do so. but the evidence for heparin having any kind of effect just doesn't have any legs to stand on here.

 

Haven't posted here in a while, but I see that my favorite old game still works.

1. Open thread in FHOP, but skip to last page,

2. See what the thread has actually drifted into.

It's still in a medical type topic, but I presume the flamewar over thimerosal has already occurred, and that's how we got to autism and this heparin malarkey?

I don't know you you guys (Evan and Galaxy of Blue) keep a straight face. Easier on the internet, I guess. =)

For the record, I get my flu shot every year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 25 2007, 01:12 PM) [snapback]530417[/snapback]</div>

Pneumoccal vaccine is once before age 65 if you have a chronic condition (diabetes, heart, lung disease, the usual stuff) and then again at 65 (and at least five years after previous dose) and then never again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Oct 29 2007, 12:44 PM) [snapback]532073[/snapback]</div>

I just watched the video of Dr. Kunin's mention of using heparin orally. He obviously regards oral heparin as a standard tool for use in reducing blood coagulation. The dosage he prescribed was 1000 units, twice a day. He commented that the patient cost for this dosage was about $10 per month.

A google for "oral heparin stomach acid" lead me to the following abstract: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...92b5b2f6df178ea
Biomedicine & Pharmacotherapy, Volume 61, Issue 1, January 2007, Pages 67-74.

The abstract concludes with the statement "These results indicate that heparin is absorbed following oral administration and that the stomach is an important site of absorption."

So I have a direct report from a doctor who I find credible who says that oral heparin works.
And a very recent medical research report that says that oral heparin is absorbed.
And reports from people who've learned from the medical literature that oral heparin doesn't work.

It's not the first time that medical types have disagreed with each other.


Personally, I wouldn't go near either heparin or coumadin, since they oppose vitamin K. Low K is just a setup for increased calcium in the arteries. I believe that I have a lifetime deficiency of vitamin K, due to my distaste for green leafy vegetables. There is a theory that supplemental K (particularly K2) will support mobilization of calcium from the arteries to the bones. My doctor (not Dr. Kunin) cleared his own calcium score primarily with arginine, and the K may also be helpful. We'll see what his CVProfilor machine says about reducing my vascular stiffness.

 

that is not a "medical research report" it is a peer-reviewed article. from a rat model. and the (minimal) absorption was to the endothelium, not plasma. after a 9000 U per kg! dose. in humans, oral heparin does not lead to an effective plasma concentration. i have yet to see otherwise. they're developing a carrier that has worked to date in animal models, and as i said they're entering clinical trials to test in humans. that's all we've got.

 

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/98/16/1610

there's the abstract for the paper where they test the heparin carrier. randomized, double-blind clinical study. some of these are beautifully done, some of them suck. this one was very well done. you see zero physiological effect of heparin without the carrier, and the effects appear in the presence of the carrier. this was a pretty landmark paper, which is why i feel it appropriate to bring up despite its age. there are plenty of efforts out there to make heparin orally bioavailable, and i don't think that all this money would be spent unnecessarily.

 

No reply, RobH? I don't blame you. It's got to be tiring to argue ignorantly against a research pharmacist, on the topic of the (non)bioavailability of heparin.

I didn't read the article. 9000 units per kilogram!

By comparison, when someone comes into the hospital with a DVT in his leg, we might load with 80 units per kilo, and then run a drip at 18 units per kilogram per hour...

 

Here's a link for "Herbal Alternatives to the Flu Shot":

http://www.newstarget.com/022218.html

Quoting the article, "Israeli virologists have found that elderberry extract has been shown to be specifically active against the influenza virus, blocking replication very effectively."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RobH @ Nov 10 2007, 12:06 AM) [snapback]537650[/snapback]</div>

Forgive me, but I am extremely skeptical. There's a lot of information on the internet, but not all of it is reliable, and that's an understatement.

 

Before I became a type 2 diabetic I was a little scared of needles. Now that I have to stick myself with them almost daily I no longer fear them. In addition, I give blood every 8 weeks and ignore the needle even if it hurts. I think I learned how to ignore pain to a point like "Rambo."

 

Saw my doctor yesterday and got a tetanus shot with whooping cough vaccine mixed in. Whooping cough made a come-back last year in New York & Illinois and this year in Ohio. The doctor asked if I wanted a flu shot too. Since I'm in good health and haven't had a flu shot for decades, I said no.

He said that this year's vaccine isn't too effective anyway. Seems that science has to predict what strains of flu will appear in a season and this has to be done far in advance to allow time for the vaccine to be manufactured and distributed. He said they missed their prediction this year and the strains that are popping up this season are ones not covered in the vaccine. :huh:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Nov 10 2007, 06:32 PM) [snapback]537846[/snapback]</div>

Is it different in different parts of the country? Later farther south? Because here in Spokane they've been vaccinating for about a month, and I got mine a couple of weeks ago.

 

I had the flu a couple of years ago. It was bad. I have had a shot eveey year since.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 10 2007, 09:57 AM) [snapback]537690[/snapback]</div>

I agree with being skeptical. I just include the dominant medical system in the skepticism.

It was the dominant system that put mercury fillings in my mouth. And I had to really fight the system to get them taken out. Most dentists absolutely would not accept the idea that mercury was a problem. I finally found one who agreed that mercury is dangerous, but he chose his words like he was under a criminal investigation. It was professionally dangerous for him to give his honest medical opinion. Doctors are so busy watching their back that they can't incorporate new knowledge into their practice for fear of backlash from a whole variety of enforcers.

It says on my medical records that I am "allergic to mercury containing compounds". Allergic my foot. The stuff is poisonous. People clearly vary in how much extra they can tolerate before having obvious symptoms, but any amount contributes to the burden. Mercury containing flu vaccine is one of those burdens. I've already got too much.

 

Wife and I had our shots on Friday, painless,and no ill effects