FIRST DRIVE REPORT: 2016 TOYOTA MIRAI

I agree, but that newsreel is most people's first, and likely only, exposure to the use of gaseous hydrogen. It is something the hydrogen FCEV lobby has to address.

 

When I think of Hydrogen I don't think of the Hindenburg. So not sure what of an impact that would have today.

 

The concern has lessened in time, but FCEVs aren't a new idea, and the Hindenburg wasn't always an old memory to the public.

Remember, people are irrational.

 

Zeppelin the manufacture of the Hindenburg is still alive and well, and recently was awarded a contract to build new Good Year blimps.

 

A hybrid of plugin hybrid has the gas engine to protect the battery. ICE reduces stress, especially in extreme temperatures. For BEV, the battery pack has to endure all driving situations.

Rav4 EV was released only in California. I am sure Mirai or subsequent FCV are tested in all driving conditions and would be able to roll out nationwide.

 

Here is why I do not agree with those statements. I remember all the presentations concerning the Prius battery being designed for "power" considerations of rapid charge and discharge in a hybrid while the RAV-4 and other BEV batteries were designed for "energy" considerations for maximum range. (This from Toyota by the way.) The batteries can actually be designed for specific situations, so while there is a difference in how the battery is used, the battery design handles these.

The missing part of your stress claim is looking at what the individual cells see is dramatically different between a hybrid and BEV. While the BEV may have more total charge and discharge current, it is distributed over a great many more cells and/or much bigger cells. The Prius battery is actually a very small battery needing to handle much more current per cell.

I would totally agree with that. The issues are economic and infrastructure maturity. Fuel Cells are use routinely in space. If they work there I don't see why they cannot work in a vehicle.

 

Yes, there are differences in power vs energy densities. The difference is the miles they power. For hybrids, it is a fraction of 150k miles. For PHEV, more. For BEV, all.

 

They can work in a car. That isn't an issue. The issue is getting them to the cost and performance point that people are willing to pay for them. Using hydrogen as the fuel then has the infrastructure cost issue.

This is where battery size becomes a factor. The hybrid is only a portion of EV miles, but it's smaller battery may see a larger number of charge/discharge cycles than the BEV in the same amount of miles, and those cycles may mean a larger percentage of the cells capacity. In order to extend the NiMH's life in the Prius, Toyota uses less than half of its capacity. The measure works, but it doesn't render the battery immortal.

A PHEV may not have the EV miles of a BEV, but it is probably more likely the traction pack is taken to empty more often than a BEV. After that, it is getting treated like a hybrid battery. Just because all the miles of the BEV are on the battery, doesn't mean the pack is being abused. Replacing it is a cost those keeping the car for a long time, or buying used, is something to consider. It is also something that should be considered with PHVs and hybrids too, or just accept that the ICE will end up being used more.

The manufacturers aren't in the business of making cars that last 10 or more years. If the majority actually bought a car, and kept it until the wheels fell off, the car companies would be hurting. They want to sell more cars. Now a reputation for reliable cars, and designing such, will help sell cars. Long vehicle life is coincidence of building for reliability.

 

lol. that's the proof isn't it.

If there's an overly active Mirai section of this forum in a couple years then we can all eat humble pie.

 

Fukushima accident was caused by an earthquake and tsunami last I checked! I believe all Mirai's are already taken, as Tustin Toyota has taken down their banner promoting it and one that was on display is gone. Within the first 10 days of orders under its belt, Toyota says it already has 600 people who’ve requested a Mirai hydrogen fuel-cell car.

 

One could ask you the same, where is your EV?

 

Yes. Not only the size but also how deep it is discharged. Gen2 Volt cycles much deeper than Gen1.

Toyota said Lithium is suitable for PHEV but they backed away from BEV saying it does not meet Toyota's customer needs.

Mirai is just the beginning of the future. Not only the future of hydrogen vehicle but the entire society from power plant, home, anything energy storage, even the iphone/iMac.

I think Toyota is. That's their fundamental practice and they are looking beyond Lithium.

 

And a car accident could exceed design expectations. There is nothing to prevent that.

Toyota can count me as one of those 600+. I signed up on their site. I live in Pennsylvania.

I believe Hill has a Leaf, and a reservation for a Model X.

GM was being cautious with the gen1. Which was prudent in light of Honda's troubles. Part of the EV operation impovment in the gen1 was expanding that discharge. It is also likely how Toyota got the Aqua fuel rating to best the new Jazz hybrid in Japan. Ford's hybrids, regular and PHV, go deeper into the capacity I believe.

Which doesn't make it true. Of course, if they can still get NiMH for cheaper than Li-ion, then they could charge a slightly lower price per car.

Then their reps should have no problems giving you the specifics of what they mean by 'life of the vehicle' when you go to take a look a Mirai then. Or for any of their cars.

 

You are not going to see a Toyota with 5 years / 60,000 miles warranty on the battery -- ahem Nissan Leaf.

 

The Nissan Leaf has a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty on the battery.
You are welcome to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

 

According to this, the S trim would get 5 years / 60,000 miles warranty. SL and SV gets 8 years / 100k miles, which is not what Toyota considers the life of a car (10 years / 150k miles).

 

Depends on car type and market location and regulations.

Hybrid batteries get 8 years/100k miles because the battery is considered part of the emission control system, and the warranty length for those components is mandated by the US government. In order to qualify for HOV access and other incentives in California and some CARB states, the warranty has to be 10 years/150k miles. While the Prius uses the exact same emission controls in cars sold in federal and CARB states, Toyota only uses the shorter federal warranty length for those cars sold in federal states. Their drivetrain warranty is only 5 years/60k miles, while most others have it to 100k miles. Hyundai has a first owner lifetime battery warranty for their hybrids.

PHVs with an ICE are treated like hybrids. BEVs don't have tailpipe emissions, so the battery isn't classified as part of an emission control system. This leaves it up to the individual manufacturers, but it appears 8years/100k miles is the floor.

I don't know the situation with FCEV warranties, but with these cars still being pre-commercial, it likely doesn't matter at this point. The large majority are going to be leased with terms that will fall under the most basic bumper to bumper warranty limits out there.

That Nissan warranty is capacity loss only, the defect warranty is 8years/100k for both.

Toyota doesn't consider the 'life of the car' 10yrs/150k. That is emission control systems only warranty, and it is only that high because of CARB, and only applies in those states. If we are going to use warranty lengths as service lifetimes, then a Toyota engines and transmissions, including the PSD, are only 5yrs/60k miles.

 

No, it doesn't. However, it is poorly written and I can understand your misunderstanding.
If you look at Nissan's site rather than a third party site, you can see here: Nissan LEAF® Electric Car Battery
that all trim levels have an 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty on the battery.
The 5 year/60,000 mile warranty you mention is on the drivetrain.

What is Toyota's warranty on the Mirai drivetrain, FC, and batteries?

 

It's 8yrs/100k miles on the fuel cell system, hydrogen system, and traction battery.
Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point