FHOP--Flaming House of Pancakes!

The rules also influence what gets reported and what doesn't. There have been posts in Fred's that I've wanted to report because I felt they contained mean-spirited personal insults directed at other posters. But I haven't, because I read the rules first and saw that there was no rule against this.

 

Moderators:

I would like to add a few comments to this discussion.

What is the purpose of this site? Is it not a resource to discuss the Prius? Is it supposed to be more than that? If so, why?

I believe this site has been damaged by the few who have taken advantage of its openness. The moderators have been unbelievably restrained. But, I truly believe there will be a cost if it is to continue this way. There will always be a few people, who when they see an opening, will take advantage of it.

Personally, I feel the line had been crossed some time ago. I have seen more administrative comment about repeat questions than to control the less than appropriate content of this site.

I give you one thing to consider.....and it may have already been mentioned. Please consider the new user to this site. What impression do you want to leave with that new user? Consider creating rules to protect that impression.

Think about it. Would Toyota let something like this happen if they ran this site? I dont think so. Don't let the few take away the years of positive impressions this site has had. I believe we all would be the better for it.

Sincerely,

 

I think it's fairly obvious this is a PRIUS site.

Out of all the forums within, only one is subject (generally anway) to "rough and tumble" behavior.

Point is, it's such a small part of this site, I really, really, doubt a "newbie" would consider what goes on in this tiny sliver to be representative of the whole. People come here for PRIUS stuff first...

 

YOU play video games online??? :blink:

I just got Day of Defeat...
h34r:

 

That is not a good solution at all!
I already mark all new threads as read all the time.
New posts to threads in FHOP happen all the time and immediately show up in "View new posts".

I'd rather be made aware of no new posts in FHOP than have to constantly be made aware of these rancorous threads.
Can you really ignore a thread if it is constantly returned by "View new posts"?

I don't blame or even care what they write over there.
I just want a simple way to filter items of no interest.

Under the current arrangement, there is no way prevent these threads from being in our faces all the time whether or not we are at all interested in them.

 

I'm a newbie (only signed up yesterday) and I only looked at this because of the note in the left hand screen said something about "flaming house of pancake's" so I had to look (you know about curiosity and the cat, don't you....?)

I think you're right that a newbie could care less what goes on in here (Pancake's area, that is). There a whole gross world out there on the internet, and I choose to ignore it - it doesn't stop me from going online. I just don't go there.

As for Prius porn - what would that be, anyway? Pictures of your car with its bra half off, or obscene shots of your gas tank with the cap unscrewed ? Oh baby...

 

I'm not quite a newbie having been on PC for just over a month. I have been around for over seven decades and, surprise, I don't know it all yet! One thing I have figured out is that I get the right to be who I am because I accept others the way they are. The problem is I get confused how to respond to people like Mr. Squid who seem to be playing with my head rather than responding to my thoughts. Communication is not an accident. It is easy to mess it up. That is what courtesy is all about. It is trying to get along without killing each other.

There is a lot of wisdom in this topic of discussion especially if it is read together. We can enjoy PC if we are responsible and accepting of each other without messing inside each other's heads. And remember, we get back in proprtion to what we give. Take "galaxee" and Dr. Fusco for example. Look how much they give in support of others and how much they are repected for it!

This is a great opportunity if we use it responsibly.

Allan de

 

I have a very simple, but perhaps not popular, solution to this problem developing in FHOP. Just drop FHOP from PriusChat.com and lets get back to civility, respect and , for the most part, the friendly atmosphere we had awhile back. I used to have my pockets full of PriusChat business-like cards which I passed out at every opportunity hoping to encourage folks to visit here but chucked them out recently as I was becoming ashamed of the flaming which was slowly permeating FHOP. The rule could then simply be: one and only one warning via PM then the boot.
FWIW
Gary

 

I agree with Canuck. In fact what I do not understand is why the moderators here are protecting MS and the mind playing games he and his kind are playing here. Is there honestly no understanding of what the difference between his approach to participation and what was here prior to the growth of the amount of flaming here?

This is a private system. It is not protected by the 1st amendment. The owners of the system have every right to do whatever they want with it.

From this point on what the moderators do (or do not do) will be very telling. Let us get back to some sanity. Please!

 

I almost never post without reading an entire thread, but I'm making an exception here to add my thoughts on FHOP and civility or uncivility:

FHOP is a good idea. It lets Prius enthusiasts discuss other topics. But as for a forum that invites invective, there are entire chat boards where one can do that. A few years back I participated in a totally free and unmoderated chat board (Fade to Black located at godisdead dot com). It was very interesting. People who like completely unfettered free speech and rough-and-tumble exchanges have places on the internet where they can do that.

I've also participated (very briefly) in moderated boards where every post is reviewed before being posted, so that there is zero bad language and zero disagreement with the opinion of the moderators. This format is boring in the extreme.

Prius Chat hits an excellent mid-point.

As for me, I just don't open threads I think might upset me. I find a lot of what Squid says annoying, so I seldom open threads he starts, and often skim through his posts if they look like they're going to be obnoxious. You don't HAVE to read every post or every thread. I'd never have time to. I probably skip 99% of the posts on the board because I don't want to spend that much time at the computer.

Fade to Black often had trolls, because they could operate freely there. The best way to get rid of them was to ignore them completely. And, at least when I was on that board, that's what would happen. They got tired of being ignored and went elsewhere.

If you find something really obnoxious, ignore it. And meanwhile, Fred's keeps most of the controversial stuff out of the car-related forums, so folks who just want to talk about the car or cars never even have to see it.

 

It was not intentional and not an attack on any side of this issue. The author was a Democratic Gov. of Colorado for 3 terms and was a Reform Party Presidential candidate for 1996. Undoubtedly he was to the left of Ann Counter and to the left of moderates and centrists alike. The first few knee-jerk negative comments or personal attacks came from members of the Left political spectrum. So it seems that they, not I a Conservative Moderate, were responsible for turning this worthy subject into the “snake pit of spitting cobras†that resulted. I responded to the accusations in as fitting manner as possible considering what I was accused of or the validity of the issue proffered for discussion. My other responses were to other singularly negative responses that this was some Far-Right propaganda, spin or just plain Crap without looking at arguement. Few if any messages actually addressed any of the points raised by this left of center former Gov. i.e.

Do countries with a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country fail or spiral into never ending conflict? He then offers a fairly long list of countries to consider.

Does promoting cultures and values that are different/diverse promote conflict or should we promote our similarities as Americans a nation based on laws?

The one I liked the best and which some on this board labeled as just plain crap, Far Left Spin or stupid was when the former Gov. pointed out the fact that these immigrants were undereducated and we should be doing something to bring the standard of their education up. So does this mean that the entire spectrum to the Left of Ann Coulter, anyone that does not like Bush, of thinks that there is something wrong with America and the conservative right is against raising the educational level of new immigrants . . .?

This country is in far more trouble from its “Supporters†because they are so partisan that any idea coming from the opposite political spectrum must be denied as invalid or stupid, without doing any critical thinking, that good ideas never see the light of day.

Wildkow

P.S. “Flame on!â€

 

I have re-read the e-mail you received twice more.

1. You say "it" was not an attack...on any side of this issue. WHAT wasn't--your posting the e-mail under the title "How to destroy America", or Lamm/s speech?

2. Outside of saying it was an e-mail, it is unattributed. Did you receive it from an individual, an organization, or what? Is it reprinted from a magazine?

3. Dick Lamm is no "liberal". You state that he "was undoubtedly to the left of moderates"---why? Because he was at one time a Democrat, before he quit the party?

4. ...bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country..." Why do you even mention this? Has someone suggested that the US should become bilingual or multi-lingual?
And the US has always been MORE than "bicultural" (which means "having two cultures). Since 1788 it's been multicultural. Since nations do not have official cultures, this means nothing more than that people have been, and are, allowed to observe some of the cultural practices of their countries of origin. Mostly this takes place in their homes, or in meetings of like-minded people organized for the purpose of observing certain customs (such as the Sons of Norway, and similar organizations of Englishmen, Germans, Dutch, Swiss, Swedish and French people).

Would you ban these private practices? Prevent people from wearing the traditional clothing of their countries of origin in, say, 4th of July parades? Do you really think these things "promote conflict"?

5. "...the former Gov. pointed out the fact that these immigrants were undereducated and we should be doing something to bring the standard of their education up." If YOU will re-read what you posted, NOWHERE did Lamm say anything about raising anyone's standard of education! He is quoted only as saying that if we want to destroy America, we should "allow" our largest group of immigrants to also be the least educated!

6. In the e-mail, WHO says California "is being destroyed"? The author of "Mexifornia" or someone else? Do YOU think California functions at an overall low level? How much time have you spent in CA?

7. In the e-mail, WHO is it who states that 100% of the people attending the conference agreed with Lamm that the US is being "ripped apart"?

8. The occasion is alleged to be of an "overpopulation conference". Do you know the organization under whose auspices the conference was held? Do you know if it was billed as an "overpopulation" conference? If so, do you think it is a "given" in the US, that is, generally believed by most Americans, that the US is "overpopulated"? Or do you think that the sponsoring organization might have that as ITS point of view?

I hope you will acknowledge my questions, and the time and effort I have put into this, and the civility with which I am trying to express myself, by responding to all the questions I have raised.

I'll raise one more question, but NOT for you to answer in your next post. I've given you enough for now. But later, would you please tell us what YOUR immigration policy for the US would be?

Thank you.

 

Jack

1) Most specifically I was responding to “Subversive’s†message that my posting of the “How to destroy America†speech by Lamm “was an intentional, no-holds-barred attack upon everyone to the left of Ann Coulter.†And “Obviously, "How To Destroy America" started out as and was always intended to be a "snakepit of spitting cobras." As I pointed out several times I was proffering an interesting message I received and was reposting it in FHOP for comment. I also don’t believe that Lamm’s speech was intended to accomplish those results either. In addition since eveyone is to the left of Ann Coulter, except Ann herself, then by simple process of elementary deduction this is a attack upon everone. Almost as ridiculii as the argument over the plural form of Prius.

2) I received it from an acquaintance of mine and do not at this time have his permission to reveal his idenity. Nor do I think it matters (not trying to be disrespectful) but the original authors are identified in Godiva’s post here . . .
http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=1...ndpost&p=207908

3) I feel fairly secure in declaring that Lamm is left of most moderates as far as the political spectrum is concerned. A decision to brand him as Far Right due to his stand on one issue is unfounded IMO. Not that you are saying this but others on PC alluded to this. I base my analysis on his history, affilations and support for different causes/issues such as . . .
i) physician-assisted suicide
ii) Sierra Club (unsuccessful bid for BOD)
iii) 12 years as the Democratic Gov. of Colorado. etc. . .

Please reference these two sites I think that you might agree. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lamm

4) ..bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country..." Why do you even mention this?
I mention it because it is the crux of the issue at hand. In and of itself they pose no threat to the USA. However, when promoted over and/or seen as more important than the unity or idenity of the nation as a whole then I would think that it poses a risk to the nation. This same sentiment has been reflected in the history of this nation as well as others. Reference the Civil War and the nations that Lamm cites.

Has someone suggested that the US should become bilingual or multi-lingual?

I am not aware of anyone that has done so.

And the US has always been MORE than "bicultural" (which means "having two cultures). Since 1788 it's been multicultural. Since nations do not have official cultures, this means nothing more than that people have been, and are, allowed to observe some of the cultural practices of their countries of origin. Mostly this takes place in their homes, or in meetings of like-minded people organized for the purpose of observing certain customs (such as the Sons of Norway, and similar organizations of Englishmen, Germans, Dutch, Swiss, Swedish and French people).

I agree. But I would also like to point out that neither Lamm or myself has said that just because the USA contains bilingual and multicultural peoples that it is bad. I would also like to point out that some Islamic nations do have an official culture to the exclusion of all others. Either through the laws of the country or by pratice.

Would you ban these private practices? Prevent people from wearing the traditional clothing of their countries of origin in, say, 4th of July parades? Do you really think these things "promote conflict"?

Where have I or Lamm posited the restriction of private practices? Where have I or Lamm dicatated the style of dress for anyone? Just because someone smells smoke and cries fire does not mean he advocates arson. Good grief what a silly assumption on your part! Although some nations have done so and suffered the consequences, Viva La France!


5) Fromer Gov. Lamm is concerned about the destruction of America. He points out that one method of doing so would be to. . . “make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. . . . I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school.â€
Lamm is against this, ergo. . . I would think that he would support their further education. I don’t think that this is an unreasonable assumption on my part. When someone smells smoke, percieves a danger therein and cries “Fire!†isn't it reasonable to conclude that he/she would support the extinguishment of said fire?

6,7,8) These questions have no relevance to the issue at hand but I will answer them if you insist or convince me with further arguement that they are relevant to the issue.

I will lay out my views on immigration as you requested. Suffice to say that I feel very lucky to have known and interacted with many people from many different cultures and to have them legally come to my country/state to do the jobs that I can’t/won’t do for the pay they are offered. I do not support the illegal immigration of anyone bi-lingual, multicultural or not especially in times of terrorism.

In reflecting upon some of former Gov. Lamm’s final comment’s I find it quite ironic how the reaction on this board fulfilled his very words. I suspect, although he didn’t mention it, that by personally attacking the messenger and not the message or by jumping on the partisan bandwagon and making this a Right v. Left – Liberal v. Conservative – Republican v. Democrat issue it would accomplish the same goal i.e. stifle discussion and debate.

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'x! xenophobes' halt discussion and debate."

"Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."



Wildkow

 

Doc, You are so right. If we can't argue & debate sensitive issues as full fledged adults what's the point of this area? I personally see no reason for foul language and name calling. I've seen 3rd graders behave better than some of you.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I don't have to agree with anyone's opinion, but all of you are entitled to your opinions. I just will agree or disagree, but unlike some folks I respect what you say even if I think you're full of lies, BS, or whatever.