Fallacy; The Troll's True Vulnerability

^ Wayne does a number of things well, including pushing cars as far as they can go on a drop of gas. If he did a few more things well, he would be a lot more successful, again if he did some of those back a few years ago at our last pain at the pump.

 

It's changed quite a bit since the term was first coined. What does it mean now?

 

^ This is going to be a very short definition and probably raise more questions than answers. It's getting the maximum fuel economy as dictated in a situation. What generated so much controversy is the things I might do on an isolated two lane rural road will be more than in rush hour in Manhattan. You have to consider the traffic. Having said that, other drivers will be annoyed even if you are speeding, so the question is when too many people are annoyed and/or it's unsafe.

 

I thought Wayne had an engineer as co-driver in the latest reports I'd read about. I believe it was a tour of the lower 48 States. Furthermore, one of the mph vs MPG charts, although not covering speeds under 45 mph, was promising. I was hoping maybe the new attitude or at least some sense of engineering had arrived.

I feel uncomfortable with posting this and have no objections if the moderators 'fix it.' (I have already reported myself!)

I agree with Wayne's goals but abhor his methodology. I have known other 'Wayne' characters who were equally brilliant in their own right but they pissed everyone off (even ME!) What they sought was good but they consistently alienated those who needed their insights. They are like a doctor who says:

• "Take this you stupid s$&@!" - It may be the right remedy but they incense the patient who won't take it even if it is the pill that saves their life!

I feel uncomfortable about posting here because Wayne isn't here. If I had a private communications path, I would share it directly. Rather it is like dealing with Consumer Reports, NHTSA, or Toyota . . . you try private means first and if those communication paths appear to be 'inert', then a public comment makes sense.

Bob Wilson

 

As I see it, there are angry drivers on the road. No matter how you are driving it doesn't change the fact that another driver is angry for whatever reasons, whether it was something you did or something else that happened miles away from you.
If they just go by at whatever speed, I personally am glad I could get out of their way. But, that is not the only scenario we are exposed to while driving. Hypermilers, treehuggers, EVers, gashogs, NASCAR highway drivers, Sunday drivers, who made credit avaiiable to that driver, etc... When it comes to each of us, our turn to deal with it, it really doesn't matter much what your name is or "how you driver your car".

 

What am I trying to accomplish discussing hypermiling?

To get everyone to lighten up on the accelerator, even those that don't consider themselves hypermilers.

Over the decades, cars are bigger and more powerful...it's conditioned us to go faster, take more chances, not think seriously about driving. Speed limits have steadily risen. In Dr No, going 60 was fast like 160 would in for Daniel Craig in Casino Royale. Lot of reasons people go faster. Again it's more powerful engines...the same size engine is about three times more powerful than 50 years ago. Less road noise numbs the speed sensation. Many commute longer, and under more pressure. Road building has not caught up with the increasing population...cars are multiplying more rapidly as more are driving alone, even with the young giving up cars.

Many of us drive a Prius. It's a great piece of tech that allows getting 45 mpg for the typical driver, but it's also about how we drive. A few of us can game it to 60 mpg or better, but I'd consider it more significant if lot of drivers go from 45 to 50 mpg (or whatever that equates to on your vehicle.)

Some have mentioned techniques that Wayne Gerdes has in detail, but the 1st step is behavioral. Decide to avoid speeding just to stay with the pack, out of habit when alone, or your car's ride make you oblivious to going fast. Do some cursory planning to your drive, be aware of the road/car/others, make the ride be productive by bringing a good podcast.

 

Chuck - I think that we are thinking along the same lines, althought I can't say I'm driving slower recently as I'm trying to learn the limits the plugins ev mode, which is still very new for me.
seeing a prius actually use it's ev capabilities seems to annoy the hell out of or confuse other drivers. I'm still not sure what I'm seeing lately.

Back to the beginning, sorry, John I hope this sentiment hasn't changed over the years since it was posted

and don't forget to
look both ways
leave plenty of space
double check those nasty blind spots at least a few times.

 

Carbon tax

 

What I've found is every system has to balance between:

• hardware - the vehicle from pavement to tank
• software - the control laws
• people-ware - the operational scenario

It is the over emphasis on 'hypermiling' to the near exclusion of hardware and software that bothers me. So we've seen examples like Jeremy Clarkson claiming 'mileage is just how you drive it' to justify their disdain for hybrids and especially the Prius. Clarkson's program, Top Gear, goes out of their way to show a Prius getting 17 MPG and other errors in facts about the car. Like his review of the Tesla where as a 'joke' (their libel defense) they staged having to 'push it' off their track.

Then there are John and Helen Taylor who make a living:

Source: http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/hypermiling-taylors-set-fuel-economy-record-in-volkswagen-passat-tdi/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

Driving stunts are easy enough but can give a false impression about a vehicle's performance. So look at the comments about that stunt. They pretty well reflect the skepticism that has grown up around 'hypermiling.'

Bob Wilson

 

Jeremy Clarkson is an idiot.

OTOH, how many Chevy Malibu or GM Hummer hypermilers have you read about, compared to Prius ?
It seems rather clear to me that people who hope to improve fuel economy through behavior look for an efficient car as well.

The lower 1/3rd of the Prius fuel economy continuum have about the same fuel economy as my Honda Fit. Some behavior modification would probably serve them well. Is slowing down to 65 mph on the highway a 'stunt' ?
How about coasting to a red light ?

 

The Gassavers site, now Fuelly chat, seemed to have attracted many a driver with a FSP looking to lessen their gas use. For whatever the reason, switching to a more efficient car wasn't a solution, and the other site drove them off by only pushing that and not helping them.

 

Define 'many.'

No doubt people exist who had no choice in the car they drive, and would like to reduce fuel consumption through behavior mod. In the US at least, that fraction is low. I'll also posit that Fuelly has members who simply want to compare their model to others of the same model, so that they know the driver and the car are "ok." We see it here at PC routinely

 

Concerning Top Gear, there are episodes that can't be taken too seriously, some obviously choosing entertainment and/or controversy over facts. In spite of Jeremy Clarkson, he actually had an episode he drove a diesel Audi on one tank from London to Edinburgh and back and was a fair representation of hypermiling, even considering he's not a fan of that or the Prius.

 

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing that the majority interested in fuel efficiency have chosen to drive a more efficient car. Just saying that there are those who can't, or don't want to, do so. Whatever their reason for the less efficient ride, driving them off for not stepping out and buying another car instead of helping them isn't going to help in reducing total fuel use.

I'll posit those Fuelly users wanting to know that their car is 'ok' aren't going to bother with the forums there for additional improvement.

 

Bob,

Guess another way of putting what you just said and in past posts over the years is: Is the fuel economy results hypermilers claim authentic? Yes, provided they were honest (and they were in most cases.) The results of myself and others that have done this indicate hypermiling does indeed save gas. When people do a data analysis on this or another topic, some things might be hard to explain - my answer is either find more data or ask if the results need to be interpreted differently. To put another way, if several hypermilers consistently get better fuel economy on a vehicle and situation it must be valid and it's just figuring out the analytics. I've heard that aerodynamically a bumblebee absolutely should not fly, yet it does so we need to figure out why.

I know you have an issue with the messenger - Wayne. Diplomacy is not his strong suit, and he has needlessly alienated a number of people without a doubt. He also has passed on several opportunities to promote hypermiling, such as putting out a book back in 2008 when hypermiling was Oxford Word of the Year. I'd bet if someone such as myself put out a serious book on the topic, Wayne would be enraged even with all the years he has had to write one. Even if Wayne were PR savvy, a number of personal contacts in the hybrid community are simply hostile to hypermiling. Not to mention many reporters covering the topic have thrown him and the topic under the bus. Some of the negative hypermiling coverage is in part due to the hype of some of the first articles with edgy driving such as "death turns" (letting the tires squeal from not braking) ... this was replicated from clueless or overworked reporters in subsequent articles. Initially Wayne liked the hype, but I'm not convinced any publicity is good publicity.

I go back to my premise it's better to get the general public to do a few things, than the "all or nothing approach" for a number of reasons.

One final note: we are so conditioned to speed that some fuel efficient techinques, while easy are hard to do because breaking habits can be very hard. Being light on the accelerator is very effective, but it's an adjustment that is a significant behavioral exercise.

 

People don't even have to try "hypermiling".
A simple attempt of driving the posted speed limit would increase most driver's fuel economy.

If there were a national pride in conserving fuel, driving the speed limit would been see as patriotic duty.

 

Well, I think I'll be belaboring the point sadly, butt if Americans in general could finally decide on what the actual limits should be that would be a big step in the right direction. In the 80 -90's fuel crunch 55 was adopted by most states as I recall from driving otr and getting triped by the company monthly.
Lots more where that came from, but it's truly boring to others having to wade through it.

 

Sorry Eric, you are no fan of Wayne's to put it mildly - don't tempt me to elaborate, please.

Again, what I'm attempting to do is to promote the general public to do something - some will do more than others, but it's something. There has been way too much demonization / misrepresentation of hypermiling - just lighten up on the accelerator!

And I'm fine with most of the hypermiling techniques.

 

Chuck, you make me smile.
You and I have known each other for a long time.

Please feel free to elaborate or call me anytime to discuss. 608-729-4082

Or if you are going to PriusChat' owner's event next month, let's talk there.

I'm always interested in your unique insights.

 

^ Eric, I don't think a private talk or lengthy discussion is necessary.

I know you are not a hypermiling fan (per a recent post in this thread, etc.), and OK that not everyone is going to be.

Hypermiling has been demonized, often misrepresented, mispromoted at times. I'm comfortable with most of the techniques and principals.

My emphasis is more on behavior than technique...the big thing is drivers have got to get over "the need for speed."

What I'm trying to accomplish is to encourage everybody to do something to save more gas. That may not be to the extent of full-blown hypermiling - different drivers will make different efforts.

I think both of us can agree if all drivers did at least one thing to stop wasting fuel, it would make a big difference. I'm not going to be promoting things like drafting, running stop signs, etc....I don't consider that responsible hypermiling at all....if you thought I was going to be encouraging that, I hope you can be at peace with that.