Featured F-150 Hybrid

I will say just this:
- You can't compare price/performance of the electric/electrified drivetrains from a decade ago to what is available today and coming tomorrow.
- The competitive advantage of electric drivetrain is not "the green thing", but the performance and other pure driving characteristics. The downside to BEV is range. The only way for hybrid drivetrain to survive is to look it at as two parts - Power generation (ICE + battery + MG1) and pure electric propulsion system (from user POV, PSD can mask out the mechanical part of equation). This then is a perfect solution for those that are afraid of range in BEV and wan't to have the driving characteristics of BEV.
- Ford did not develop their full hybrid system, they just copied Toyota and tweaked it to their needs, I have doubts that they are capable (or have the R&D resources) for developing HSD for truck application. Ford is going down next, all they have today is F-150 sales.

In the end It may be possible the engineers at Ford presented two concepts, the PSD option was obviously the more expensive one and the "bean counters" just didn't see the potential it has. I hope Toyota goes the other route.

 

The HSD today is the HSD of 10 to 15 years ago with incremental improvements. The fundamentals of how it works has not changed.

The Rav4 hybrid and Prime aren't decades old, and they are still out towed by the ICE version with less power.

The Multi-stage hybrid system isn't going to change radically in the future.

Ford isn't releasing a F150 PHEV. They are releasing a F150 hybrid so buyers can use less gas while still doing everything with the truck that they did with the ICE model. Not provide a BEV experience without a plug. If that was the goal, a series hybrid is far easier to do.

This system can be used for a PHEV; Hyundai is doing so. It won't have an EV experience as close to a BEV as a power-split PHEV, but that is okay. Buyers of PHEVs want that experience now, but the market is still expanding, and people will come to it with other needs and wants.

Ford did develop their own power-split system, and may have even started on it during PNGV. Toyota filed their patents first, and there was overlap. 21 of the hundred or so patents they had could have been applied to Ford's. An agreement was reached to avoid going to court. Ford's second gen system shares nothing with Toyota.

Ford's financial health has delayed their introduction of hybrids and other technologies.

Ford and Toyota formed a partnership for a truck hybrid system, because they both knew it wouldn't be easy. They had the experience with their own systems, and the history of two-mode to know that. If Ford was incapable of doing hybrids, why leave the partnership? Toyota has even made their hybrid patents available for free.

[/quote]In the end It may be possible the engineers at Ford presented two concepts, the PSD option was obviously the more expensive one and the "bean counters" just didn't see the potential it has. I hope Toyota goes the other route.[/QUOTE]The Corolla and Camry hybrids still cost around $3000 more than the ICE models. Their take rate compared to ICE sales haven't changed much since earlier generations of the Camry hybrid. The success of the Rav4 hybrid in the US is because we don't get the FWD option. Toyota is using the AWD fee to cover the cost of the hybrid fee. Then the hybrid has a few more hp's for marketing.

If the hybrid costs too much, people will not buy it. If the hybrid can't do everything the ICE model does, people will not buy it.

So costs were always a consideration.

Toyota will likely go with the Multi-stage system. It's what they have, and they seem married to power-split like they are married to hydrogen.

 

Electric motors have seen only incremental improvements (power to weight)
Batteries have seen only incremental improvements

At some point incremental improvement is good enough and then you can throw conventional 100 year old designs away.

Tesla Semi, Toyota hydrogen Semi, Cybertruck, Rivian... They just didn't hea your and are making it all wrong. I know, now you will come up with 20 old argument that PSD can't handle it. Maybe if you repeat your bullshit another 10 times on the forum it will became the truth.

 

You're the one claiming a PSD type hybrid driving the front axle with an electric motor on the rear axle is enough to meet the needs of a work truck, while ignoring that such hybrids available today are still outperformed by their ICE siblings.

Electric motors alone are already up to the task. Locomotives have been using them since the 1960's. Doing a series hybrid like them would be easy, but the energy conversion losses means less efficiency at higher speeds. Your proposal would require a more powerful MG1 to feed that rear motor, which brings in more conversion losses. As the rear motor will be doing most of the work while towing, a larger battery alone would be need to be sized for longer operating periods of that motor. At a point the truck might as well be a PHEV.

Ford is not making a plug in truck, they are making a hybrid one.

BEV and FCEV trucks aren't comparable, because none of them incorporate an ICE into their drive train. They are basically series hybrids without a generator. A series hybrid truck could perform as well as them in terms power, but the efficiency is generally only acceptable as a range extender to a plug in.

But let's look at what Toyota's work truck division, Hino, is doing.
Toyota’s Next (Really) Big Thing in Hybrids for the U.S.: Diesel/Electric Hino Commercial Trucks

Oh, snap! It's a parallel hybrid.
"the hybrid trucks combine Hino’s 5.0-liter turbo-diesel four-cylinder engine—it makes 210 hp and 440 lb-ft of torque—with a single electric motor contributing another 48 hp and 250 lb-ft. The motor is sandwiched between the flywheel and the six-speed automatic transmission’s torque converter."
Maybe Toyota shouldn't have let them work independently on this. Hino's bean counters must have gotten in the way of the engineers. Toyota's Largest, Heaviest Hybrid: Hino 195h Truck

The system hasn't changed much since it came out.
HINO TRUCKS - HINO 195h Hybrid Medium Duty Truck

 

A regular automatic FWD through the road hybrid would be cheaper than Fords concept,
99% of use cases DO NOT NEED RWD.
Heck it’s nice being able to steer as well as move forward

Power could transfer back during slip when required eliminating any towed weight concern, the rear axle (and front) could be slid back similar to modern sedans which would provide even better stability and handling.

An IMA concept could handle generator/alternator/starter duties.
Likely gain 20% economy just going FWD

 

I'm fine with my cars being FWD, and even think the increase in AWD sales is a waste. Most of the people spending money on these trucks think they need RWD, or have simply not given it thought.

Then there is a need for some jobs. A FWD semi wouldn't work. The F150 and like are used by some as a smaller scale of that type of tool. Do we tell them they have to buy a less efficient F250 now if they want RWD? Are people that buy those bigger trucks undeserving of having a hybrid option?

An IMA type system powerful enough to power the rear axle would be a full parallel hybrid like Ford's system. Making it FWD means paying for that rear motor.

Tesla and VW BEV's a RWD based because of performance. With modern ABS and stability control, the advantage of FWD isn't as great as it once was.

Ford does have a small FWD pickup coming out. If a hybrid is available, it will likely be using the power-split system from the Escape.

 

Again, what does 10 year old Hino hybrid truck have to do with what is coming tomorrow?

Electric motors are coming down in price and up in performance to the point where there is no sense of saving peanuts to go the "old" route.

Have you seen the cost breakdown that Munro gave on Tesla motors? Tesla Semi has four of those $754 motors to haul 40 tones and it gets 0-60 mph in 20s with all that 40 tones. How much time for the rest of industry to get to the same Technology that Tesla had 3 years ago? They probably already have it.

How can Toyota sell 1.5 million hybrids at such a low price premium compared to DCT turbo competition and still get the industry leading profit margins? I think (hope) Toyota is delaying the introduction of their hybrid truck just because they see the quick progress of electric drivetrains. Competition may be first to the party, but it won't give them much of an advantage if Toyota introduces a superior product.

 

You want trucks to use 20 year old tech. A full parallel hybrid is the newer technology.

How do you want that electric motor powered without a plug? All the energy for a hybrid comes gasoline. Shifting more of the engine's output to the series path will result in lower efficiency.

If you want a truck with an EV drive train, Ford will have an electric F150.

Not according Munro.

In the US, Hyundai hybrids are priced lower than Toyota's. If Toyota has greater profit margins, it is because of the amortization of their production; they have been making variations of their hybrid system for 20 years to the competition's 10 after all.

Toyota pick ups have long generation cycles; 8 to 11 years is about the average. The current Tundra goes back to 2007. The next Hilux isn't expected until 2025, and it came out 5 years ago.

 

I think one of the reasons that the PSD hybrid might be less advantageous for heavy duty applications and have a lower towing rating, is the reduced torque in the (electronically reversed) reverse "gear". In forward driving, the torque from the ICE and the MG2 are added together in the PSD. But when driving in reverse, the torque that comes directly from the ICE is subtracted from the MG2 torque in the PSD. The ICE can still partly overcome this by supplying more indirect positive torque from MG1, electronically reversed and multiplied, and added to MG2, but it is still less than in forward driving.

For normal light duty use, that usually causes no problems, but for backing up a heavily loaded trailer, reverse torque might be insufficient.

That could be compensated by having an extra mechanical reverse gear, or with bigger motors, inverters, and/or batteries, or lower overall gearing, but that might require major modifications to existing systems, or a completely new systems.

But still, considering the recent advances in the power density, cost, and efficiency of electric motors and power electronics, it might now, or soon, be worth it to develop a heavy duty PSD hybrid drivetrain.

 

Interesting aspect, this can be nicely compensated by the more powerful battery

Of course they don't have it now in the end product, but it won't take long. The technology Tesla uses is nothing new, they just put it together really "nicely".

 

Such advances will also reduce the costs of the parallel hybrid too. Using that for your truck hybrid, frees up production of larger batteries and more powerful motors for your plug in models. There the KISS solution is a series hybrid. With an adequate EV range, the lower efficiency at higher speeds won't be a big concern.

The weakness in the PSD might simply be the choice of the automatic fluid. These have a relatively low tolerance for heat. An actual gear oil would do better, but would likely be thicker, reducing efficiency.

 

Perhaps some of you' all might get instrumentation reporting the MG1, MG2, and transmission coolant temperature. Then do an A-B-A test towing with a load:


I no longer have a Prius or any car with a PSD transmission. Regardless, testing is how to replace speculation with facts and data.

Bob Wilson

 

Recently, just with the family new Prius+ we went for a long trip (relatively fast 140km/h - 85-90MPH) and got the data. The trans oil jumped up to the roof in temperature, we got 119ºC (250ºF), and with no hauling of course. I consider it very high. Might be of the PSD break-in?

 

The real question is what is the source of this heat? Planetary gears or electric motors? I would guess electric motors.

Either way, you can just add some form of radiator to it. As far as I know the case of transaxle is smooth, without even a cooling fin. Why? Because this heating is apparently non issue for normal use. For truck use, you can just add radiator and a quart more ATF fluid in the transaxle, job done.

It's the same story with conventional AT, in the old days it was very common to install additional ATF cooler, because the transmission was heating up badly.

 

From my old man memory, I remember there were 'knees' in the curve, discontinuities that lead to worse performance. For example, the NHW11 (2001-03) model had one at ~70 mph (112 kp/h.) So I typically cruised a little slower. Some NHW20 owners did some high speed tests out west and their knee was in your speed range:
2003 Prius


Bob Wilson

 

This is exactly true, although the reason is not reverse. Reverse with load is normally done slowly, so there is likely plenty of power between the battery and mg1.

When we look at the ratio of first gear on a towing axle on the f150 (17:1) to 10th gear on the non towing axle (2:1). If you set up the psd to be 10th gear then at low speeds high power mg1 needs to spin very fast and send a lot of power to mg2. If you set it up for that first gear then mg1 is going to spin very fast backwards and a lot of power needs to go from mg2 to mg1. That's why Lexus put a 4 speed transmission on top of their high power psd. Otherwise electronics and motors need to grow large with engine power. Of course this helps simulate a traditional transmission, but all electric feels better than traditional.

Rav4 prime solves this by adding more battery to a reasonably powered ice (176 hp(130kw) ice, 126 hp (95kw) additional from the battery/hybrid parts). It can be geared to efficient highway travel and the battery provides plenty of kick to mg2 and mg3 to be good off the line. It lacks as much towing not because of the psd, but because the brakes, chassis, and tires have not been modified to handle the additional weight. Still this is 900 lbs and 302 hp, ford was shooting to provide the same performance or more as its 450 hp truck that can pull 12,000 lbs.

At that rate it is tough to down size the engine much without a plug in. Ferrari uses a 6.5 kwh battery to provide 219 hp to its motors. This is likely similar in chemistry to the lithium batteries Toyota, Ford, and Lexus hybrids not the less expensive batteries per kwh in phevs and bevs. Still with a battery that big you could gear the truck to high speed in a psd and add a 280 hp turbo miller cycle 6 cylinder. I was suggesting more of a 3 kwh battery hybrid with eAWD. In that case it is likely harder to develop the psd to handle the extra power at all speeds, so I would keep the ford strategy of using the traditional auto speed and a pancake motor as torque converter and hybrid for the rear. But I would as well as an electric motor in the front for regen braking and eAWD. This is the set up of ferrari's phev. That way ford can easily substitute more or less powerful engines as well as having better power control.

 

Modern Transaxle gear oils can be good up to 280F as long as they are changed more often But at 250F idling along a trans cooler would be a good idea.


This guy pulling his enclosed trailer never got over 226F trans towing his 16’ trailer behind his volt

 

200F was the point at which conventional fluid started breaking down. Synthetic will handle higher, and I believe Toyota uses synthetic now. I recall people that DIY PSD fluid changes on the gen2 stating the old fluid had a burnt smell to it.

Automatic transmission fluid has to do two jobs; it works as a hydraulic fluid in addition as a lubricant. A compromise to that is not being as heat tolerant as a straight motor or gear oil. Still true today, and many cars have an additional tranny cooler.

The fluid in the PSD is the fluid Toyota uses in their automatics. The Prius finally got a tranny cooler in the gen4. It isn't clear to me whether it originally had the standard cooler built into the radiator or none at all before that. With the cooler, the Prius got a tow rating in Europe, but I know the Aveo could out tow it.

Any specific details on what the Adventure and TRD Rav4's might be different than the rest? The torque vectoring AWD system with downhill control seems to be the main difference.

 

I would say the main difference is the non hybrids can put more power to their rear wheels (100 hp) and are lighter (4400 lbs for rav4 prime, 3615 lbs for adventure, 3655 lbs for the trd). My guess is the rear hp does not make much of a towing difference, but they could simply make mg3 more powerful and mg2 less powerful and provide plenty to the rear. The big thing is brakes are the same so weight plus towing is similar and toyota likely just rounded down to the nearest 500 lbs.

On off roading the extra weight is more of a problem but the extra hp helps. The TRD has upgraded suspension and stickier all terrain tires. Both TRD and Adventure have clutched differentials for torque vectoring. All this could be added to the prime but suspension and brakes to make as good of an off road machine with that weight is an expensive proposition.

 

.... and iirc - Tesla has opened up (to encourage development) their patents.
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