evolution vs creation vs Intelligent Design

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 5 2006, 07:55 AM) [snapback]250212[/snapback]</div>

Many scientists believe in god because they were brainwashed into it as babies. However, they take a strongly allegorical view of scripture and believe that religion must conform to what we know about the world, not the other way around.

In my statement, which you quote above, my intention is to point out that it is more intelligent to admit that one cannot know the unknowable, than to assert that one possesses The Truth ™ about the unknowable. And while I hold the opinion that it is more intelligent to be an atheist than a believer, I also say that it is more intelligent to believe in an undefined, unspecified creator, than to believe one knows exactly who and what this putative creator is, how it created the world, and what it wants of us.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 5 2006, 11:14 AM) [snapback]250352[/snapback]</div>

Just because you believe in unicorns doesn't mean they actually exist.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ May 8 2006, 09:43 PM) [snapback]251981[/snapback]</div>

Exactly. I am not arguing against christianity or Christians in this thread. I am only arguing against the minority of christians who insist on certain very narrow interpretations of the Bible.

 

From the Vatican...:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...an-life_en.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 10 2006, 10:42 PM) [snapback]253275[/snapback]</div>

I saw that a couple days ago and got a good giggle out of it =)


EDIT: Whoops, once it loaded I realized it was NOT what I saw before: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50088

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 9 2006, 08:50 AM) [snapback]252144[/snapback]</div>

I didn't know there was a wide interpretation?

What good is absolute truth, it the interpretation is subject to anyones opinion?

Doesn't that corrupt truth?

Are there really many roads to the same place?... if so how many?

(Mat 7:13 NKJV) "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 10 2006, 11:09 PM) [snapback]253295[/snapback]</div>

Windstrings, you cannot REALLY mean that you didn't know the bible (and definately Genesis) is considered open to interpretation by many Christians.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(geologyrox @ May 11 2006, 04:28 AM) [snapback]253379[/snapback]</div>

Hey, I was thinking I might have had an impact on him ...

But I suppose you're right. Unfortunately, it is our own preconceptions that are the hardest to recognize.

If there's one point that I would like to make, and have made, but doesn't seem to sink in ... religion/theology has just as much debate and decision making in it as any human-knowledge endeavor, including science. Most of the people arguing either side have no idea of the complexity of the other side's position; it is a classic example of non-communication among a plethora of words.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(geologyrox @ May 11 2006, 04:28 AM) [snapback]253379[/snapback]</div>

Everyone wants to act like "they" have the answer... there cannot be many interpretations of one truth.

If an event happened.. thats what happened... it didn't happen 53 different ways... only one.

the problem is we dont' know the exact picture because information is so limited.

Anyone who claims to have the answer is only guessing.

Anyone who has truth in his heart will have to admit, they are speculating and based on thier present level of "revelation" of the scriptures have to guess the best way they can.

Its like trying to figure out a picture on a puzzle with only 1/3 of the pieces.

Everyone wants to give the impression they are the expert and know the real answer.

the fact is, many of the scriptures we only see in part....and other scriptures reveal thier total meaning... it was never mean't, nor is it important that we know all those details at this time.

Some things are open to interpretation concerning spirtual matters of intent, grace, condemnation, law etc.. but when we are talking about real events... it only happened one way... we just dont' know which way.

When I was young I used to read poems and couldn't understand them because the person who wrote them was talking above my head on purpose to talk deep and cover many levels at once.

God talks the same way.. his speech is absolute and truth on all levels, for all times, and all circumstances.

When he speaks, he often speaks with the language of the soul... pictures, and impressions... not in real language of german, english, etc... he speaks in a univeral language of the spirit.
When trying to interpret that language, many can only speculate.

Can you interpret your dreams absolutely?

thats the language of the soul and spirit.... thats the universal language... most do not even know about it, let alone be able to interpret it.

Dreams and language from God can only be interpreted with revelation from God... mans understanding alone does not cut it.

This is what made Daniel so famous, His ability to hear from God the interpretation of the language of the soul and hear Gods voice through that language.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 12 2006, 11:16 PM) [snapback]254635[/snapback]</div>

Hmmmmm So... I think this means that I've heard god's voice correctly telling me that he does not exist, and I have interpreted this correctly in becoming an atheist. Thank you Windstrings. I appreciate your vote of confidence in me.

P.S. Cats don't bite me either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 13 2006, 08:31 AM) [snapback]254733[/snapback]</div>

YOur statement is a perfect example of how aetheism makes no sense.... how can you hear Gods voice if he doesn't exist?

How can you exist or this planet or this universe without a God?

Don't you think you could be missing alot?

Do you really think that reality is only as you can see it?

Are you one of those that says "if a tree falls and you didn't see it, it didnt' happen?"

Just because you can't see or understand what others do, does that make you right and them wrong?

Does your logic make any sense at all?... really?...

Are you really that "unteachable"..... if 100 people see something and you don't... are you really going to call them wrong and you right?..... aren't you just a bit concerned that you may be missing the most important thing in all of your life?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 15 2006, 02:10 AM) [snapback]255556[/snapback]</div>

just because you and millions of others believe in creation does not mean you're right by default or sheer number.

there are certainly as many people who believe in alternate explanations for all of existence.

your faith is clearly very strong and i'm glad for it because it works for you, but faith is not the same as logic. you cannot equate the two and say that someone without faith is not logical for not believing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 15 2006, 02:10 AM) [snapback]255556[/snapback]</div>

I for one don't believe that just because I did not see a tree fall, it could not have happened. However, if somone else tells me that a tree fell, I would consider the source before deciding that a tree must have fallen.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ May 15 2006, 07:16 AM) [snapback]255621[/snapback]</div>

I agree that Faith and logic are two seperate issues.....

I have to use no faith to believe in Creation.... its obvious!

I have to use no faith any more than I do to believe the moon is really up there.... just because I see it, how do I know its real?... Have you ever see the movie... "the truman show"?

If you depend on your eyes to determine whats real and whats not, its like trying to diagnose a cancer by looks.

There is far more to this world than what meets the eye. THe eye is very limited... you have to be able to "interpret" what you see or your eyes are no good.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 15 2006, 10:41 AM) [snapback]255640[/snapback]</div>

This is true...

Is a Squirrel aware of such things as vehicles, the moon, and other celestial objects?

We may actually be the Squirrels on an entirely different level, if so, would we know any different?

Nope.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 14 2006, 11:10 PM) [snapback]255556[/snapback]</div>

Hey, I was just responding to your statement that I was able to hear gods voice and interpret it correctly! I do not hear god's voice, because god does not exist. But if the great Biblical scholar Windstrings asserts that I interpret god's voice corrctly, I take that as an admission from you that my interpretation of the non-existence of god is correct.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 15 2006, 09:01 AM) [snapback]255700[/snapback]</div>

Again, another example of your reasoning.

btw, I'm by no means a scholar..... but "like yourself", I do like to research and attempt to understand why I believe what I believe... but there are limits I have to admit exists.

There are things I must conceed I do not understand, but that doesn't make thier existence non-real.

I get on jet planes and trust they will fly and get me to my destination safely, even though I don't understand how.

There are tons of things I don't understand, yet I trust... like my wife for instance! :lol:

You can't be so protective and encapsulated in your eggshell that you don't let God inside.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 15 2006, 10:24 AM) [snapback]255767[/snapback]</div>

How can I let something inside that does not exist?

BTW, I have tried the prayer thing in an open-minded spirit of inquiry: I have prayed, "God, if you exist, enlighten me." Results were negative. Then a Pentacostal preacher told me my mistake was praying to god, when (according to him) one can only come to god through Jesus and I had to pray to Jesus. I asked him for the "correct" words to use (don't remember them verbatim now, but it was something along the lines of, "Jesus, if you exist, open my eyes.") So I did that, for a week, and the results were negative again.

Apparently you have to believe in order to believe. Reductio ad absurdum.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 16 2006, 11:17 AM) [snapback]256251[/snapback]</div>

Daniel, were you truly "seeking" God or were you "testing" God? I would guess by the results that you were "testing" God rather than "seeking" God. I know by personal experience that there is a big difference between the two.
I believe that we should come to God on "His" terms not "our" terms and then He shall truly be found if we are truly "seeking" Him.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ May 16 2006, 10:01 AM) [snapback]256330[/snapback]</div>

I was seeking the truth. If there is a god I'd like to know. Who wouldn't? But I was not trying to convince myself that there's a god. See, part of the problem in these discussions is that the fundies imagine that we all "know" there is a god but we reject him out of pure stubbornness. Well, there may be isolated individuals who've had such damaging experiences growing up in their parents' church that they "reject god." But atheists are (by definition) people who do not believe that such a thing as a god exists. But if there is a god I'd like to know so I could appease him and get my share of that pie in the sky when I die.

Truth is what I was after. Sincerely. The Bible thumpers were telling me if I wanted the truth I'd have to ask. So I asked. But I was not "testing god." If anything, I was testing the proposition that if you ask you will be answered.

But if there is a god who plays infantile mind games on people, providing them with overwhelming evidence that he does not exist, and then demanding that they believe, against all evidence, that he does exist, before he will make himself known to them, he is a far cry from the benevolent spirit christians try to make him out to be.

My honest beliefs arise out of my experiences, my senses, and my reason. If there is a god who wants me to believe in him he has only to make himself known to me. He'll find me open and welcoming. But as long as all the evidence points the other way, that's where my beliefs reside. I am not hostile to god, only to people who use their narrow religious prejudices to deprive people different than themselves of their rights.

Hey, God, if you're reading Prius Chat, I'd really like to know about you. Come on in! This is not a test or a taunt. It's an invitation. I'll make you a cup of Soyfee (sorry, I don't keep coffee in the house) and we can have a chat.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 16 2006, 04:58 PM) [snapback]256560[/snapback]</div>

Its more like games of the heart.... think about it.. if you were God who created all things, and by him all things exists, you would demand a state of humility and contriteness before allowing someone to enter your presence.

You are still talking down to God and those who represent him.... even though you have an open mind to challenge God to reveal himself, you are as those who refuse to humble themselves and want God on thier terms, rather than His terms.

Even though you can't get good to get God, you can get humble to get God.

Humility is hard to do on your own, but its like forgiveness, you must be open to it and allow God to help you.
Repentance itself is a gift. So is the ability to approach him. If you want to see God, you will need to change the tone of your heart.

(James 4:6 KJV) But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

(Psa 138:6 NKJV) Though the LORD is on high, Yet He regards the lowly; But the proud He knows from afar.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 16 2006, 06:29 PM) [snapback]256590[/snapback]</div>

Not at all. If I was a god and wanted people to believe in me, I'd show myself to them. I'd make my existance abundantly clear to them, and only then would I ask obedience to whatever rules I had decided to impose upon them.

I would not create tricks and traps to hide myself from them.

And although I may talk down to fundies when they use twisted or circular logic, I don't talk down to god, because there is no god.

If you showed up at my door, I'd invite you in for a cup of Soyfee (or herbal tea... I think I have some of that at the back of my cupboard). Would that be "speaking down" to you? So how is it "speaking down" to god to say, "God, if you're there, open my eyes."? Or, "Come on over for a cup of Soyfee," which, though it doesn't taste very good, is the stuff I drink myself. (I'm still searching for a good coffee substitute.)