Environmental News

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Oct 22, 2015.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,576
    11,851
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Large scale field experiment for adjusting ocean pH to capture carbon is planned.

    Cape Cod scientists want to dump 60,000+ gallons of sodium hydroxide into ocean in climate change experiment

    Those against are ignorant or cynics using emotional messaging. Solid sodium hydroxide, NaOH, or lye is nasty stuff you don't want on you, but the project is talking about pouring in gallons. It is predissovled, so even if the starting solution is of dangerous strength, it will quickly disperse in the ocean currents.
     
    tochatihu likes this.
  2. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,218
    3,593
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Had not heard of this. WHOI plans to add 50% NaOH and that is plenty nasty. Reliable eye protection at least.

    FAQs: The LOC-NESS Project

    I see a bulk price $USD 362 per ton of 50% NaOH. Not showing my work (but I could) this means a direct cost of about $1370 per ton of CO2 sequestered. That is not a low price compared to other C seq technologies, but maybe there are other benefits such as mitigating ocean acidification.

    Making NaOH involves electrolysis, and if that electricity comes from 'burning stuff', this will not be a carbon negative process. Sounds like fun though.

    ==
    I have students play with CO2 measuring equipment and 1 molar NaOH solution. But still with eye protection :) [CO2] in lab air can be 800 ppm (with windows closed). Watching that go to zero in a matter of seconds is impressive.
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,576
    11,851
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    We use a NaOH solution capture CO2 from fermentation. Have to be careful not to have the carbonate made go further to bicarb.
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,734
    15,700
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Direct carbon capture from sea or atmosphere makes no sense. At least six orders of magnitude being added not counting the carbon released by manufacturing the sodium hydroxide. Fish kill most likely outcome.

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,576
    11,851
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Decreasing pH from the CO2 in the water will kill the fish, other critters, and plants.

    Sodium hydroxide reacts with the carbonic acid to form sodium carbonate, and then sodium bicarbonate, which isn't as soluble in water as the rest.
     
  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,218
    3,593
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Just increase pH a leeeetle bit. That is a very strongly buffered aqueous system.

    Unless one obtains NaOH in a way that does not require electricity from burning, this cannot be net-C-negative. The process made me wonder if there might be a way to couple this with lithium recovery from brines. I think NaOH production could be combined with water production from ocean by reverse osmosis.

    I should put a spreadsheet here describing CO2 release from fossil fuels burning, per megawatt hour produced. Currently in draft form, it allows changes to input parameters. But the rule of thumb is about $USD 300 per ton CO2 produced. Flip that, and if any electricity based C seq process costs >$300 per ton CO2, it cannot win.
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,576
    11,851
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The US still allows the asbestos method.
    Chloralkali process - Wikipedia

    If using a carbon free electricity, it also yields green hydrogen. If you don't have another use for that, it can go to producing some energy for the system. Just need to do something with the chlorine.
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,218
    3,593
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,576
    11,851
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
  10. Stevewoods

    Stevewoods Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2014
    651
    1,028
    0
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Model:
    II
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,443
    50,202
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    lucky them :cool:
     
  12. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,327
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    For swimming in the human sewage? The article I saw elsewhere, suggested that it comes from human consumption via poorly treated sewage. These sharks were sampled in the waters off Rio de Janeiro.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,576
    11,851
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,734
    15,700
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Funny you mention this. Battle fields are not nice places to be but the combination of unrecovered bodies and this summer's heat has made that doubly so in Ukraine.

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,456
    1,704
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    With CO2 Levels Rising, World’s Drylands Are Turning Green
    Despite warnings that climate change would create widespread desertification, many drylands are getting greener because of increased CO2 in the air — a trend that recent studies indicate will continue. But scientists warn this added vegetation may soak up scarce water supplies.


    With CO2 Levels Rising, World’s Drylands Are Turning Green - Yale E360
     
    Merkey likes this.
  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,218
    3,593
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,218
    3,593
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    We may be in a bit of a lull here, so here's a story from decades ago. To assess how many and which small rodents were active in a place we used live traps. Boxes with bait inside and the door closed after 'Mickey' entered. Next morning we would mark the captured and release them. Some victims would go again. And again. We called them trap happy. What up with that?

    Imagine yourself a small rodent out at night searching for food. There be snakes with infrared vision, too bad if they detect you. But now there is a box with food inside. Go in and eat and spend the night in a snake-proof place. Morning comes, some dude paints you and lets you scurry back to home hole. On balance it was not a bad night. Big enough brain says do it again.

    This is field-ecology version of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. The observation of natural processes changes them.
     
  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,218
    3,593
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    So it would seem that insights into what ecologists have some value here. To the extent I can provide them. Well, OK then I may provide others. We'll see how it goes.

    It's clear and obvious that bits of ecology taken into lab experiments are not 'the thing'. They are chosen, ideally wisely to illuminate some aspect(s) of reality resistant to examination in the field. Everyone knows this and takes care. Value is set by journal reviewers whose omniscience may come up later.

    Doing ecology outside aims at 'beating Heisenberg'. It is not always done with great insight, nor assessed with great insight.

    ==

    Well, great to read opinions, but what of it? I often return to The Human Enterprise - it is going well at >8 billions (more good than bad I want to say). Keep this good thing going to 10 billions probably needs additional ecological insights. Few among ecologists are onto the needed things, and the heck of it is that no one knows which. The Uncertainty Principle is not done with us yet.
     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,218
    3,593
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    One of our members plans to use poison ivy extract to harm people who would touch his political yard signs. Setting aside if this is evil, it must be done carefully.

    Urushiol the desired chemical is in all parts of poison ivy. It causes contact dermatitis in 90% of humans and a few other mammal species. The most convenient extraction solvent is ethanol, let's say cheap tequila.

    Poison ivy always has 'leaves of three' but is also shape shifter so leaves may not be dentate as in online images. So for scouting, bring some paper. Broken PI leaves wiped on paper turns paper black in 30 minutes. This is an effective diagnostic.

    All aspects of urushiol play require protection. Polyethylene bunny suits, particle mask, and double gloves. Bag up tested leaves and tie that bag tightly for the drive home. Protective gear in a second tied bag. Extraction done outdoors on a hot plate or similar. Do not stand downwind. Dogs stay indoors.

    Heat for ? minutes, filter though paper, return to heat to reduce liquid volume. Everything used must be thrown out. If the heating pan cannot be tossed, thoroughly wash with laundry detergent (dish soap inadequate) and hot water. Do the paper test after but I'd still not ingest from that pot again. Contact dermatitis in gastric tract? No thank you very much.

    Put cooled juice in spray bottle. Set yard signs and spray them after. Throw all yer junk away. Assuming evil plan fails, November yard sign disposal is bunny suit etc. again.

    ==
    If scheme works, expect retribution. Tire slashing or whatever.

    ==
    Everyone else, forget about urushiol as a deer antifeedant. They are not affected, plus, you'd spray that stuff in your garden? Sheesh.
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,734
    15,700
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Just a couple of details:
    • Leave dogs at home
    • Put plastic trash bag over car seat before harvesting
    • Properly clad, gloves, long sleeves shirt, mask, safety glasses, and pants in boot socks
    • Gather into liquid holding, wide mouthed, plastic container, ~1 liter, with screw-on cap
      • disposable scissors harvest leaves into shredded material
      • secure cap and put in plastic bag
    • discard gloves, mask, scissors in trash bin
    • at home, all clothing into washer and soapy shower
      • new gloves, safety glasses, mask
      • add grain alcohol to leaf jar and shake
      • seep 24 hours with occasional shaking and one day with "sun tea" solar
      • wash boots with soapy water
      • soap wash car interior and door handle
    • mail 'heads up' letters to neighbors
      • offer to discuss politics over pizza
    • install first pair of political signs in a "V" 2-3 m (~10 ft) from curb
      • behind "V", show recent range targets
      • enable motion detect lights facing road
    • paint brush extract on political signs
      • store container in external, doggies safe space
      • wash clothes and soapy shower
    Past experience, there is a 1-2 hour window to soap wash exposed skin.

    By example, show my Dixie neighbors, one who won't let the Second Amendment bullies cancel his First Amendment rights. No bumper stickers but will carry easily accessible bag with feral hog hunting tools.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Following the example of Harry Golden. who published the "Carolina Israelite."
     
    #2340 bwilson4web, Sep 16, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2024