Environmental group takes on Toyota.

Then technically I can't nag on any car with the GM 3.8 V6 cos it's been around for decades?

I mean, they're not exactly right for publishing this article, and they're missing a lot of points, but everyone here is missing the fact that they do have some good points to make. Toyota seems to be leaning more towards the performance/guzzler side of things (the lexus, the HiHy). How bad would a HiHy 4cyl with the 160hp 4 it has really be? It'd have just as much power as the V6 (probably) with better milage than the 4. But Toyota didn't go that route. Maybe they'll redeem themselves with the Camry Hybrid, and I certainly hope they do, but they struck out with the HiHy and Rx400.

 

Up until last year I would have agreed with you regarding the stately 3800, but do you know it actually has VVT this year? And it cranks out over 30mpg on the highway. That's actually kind of amazing.

 

Right, so if you ran Toyota you'd discontinue all of their high end > V6 vehicles, and gut the rest of them. They'd be pretty green then.

I don't like big vehicles either, but the reality is that like it or not, there is a demand for those vehicles, trucks etc..., and that Toyota, like all others, makes decisions based on demand. So if you don't like that Toyota is making too many trucks, SUVs, etc... and think that they're a horrible company, remember that it's Americans who are buying these vehicles, and to change Toyota's ways, a significant shift in American car buying needs to take place

And again, I have to disagree with you about the Highlander Hybrid. It's not a terrible vehicle as you describe, and just like the Prius, when driven properly, you can get 30+ MPG (that car's EPA). For what it is, a 7 passenger 4WD SUV, no vehicle does what it does, consumes as little fuel as it does, and has as low emissions (SULEV).

Is there room for improvement? Of course. Making a 4 cyl version would be great... but it's not this horrible monster truck as you imply. Plus, going back to the article, where they got bad MPG from the Highlander, I think that's because most auto pundit types who do the reviews of these cars don't drive the cars properly, or aren't willing to change their ways to get the best mileage... plus they only drove it for a week. Where are the lifetime mileage figures? how about driving the car for 10000 miles and see how it does for mileage?

Plus, both the Highlander Hybrid and the RX400h seem to be selling quite well. I think in the last Toyota sales report for Septemeber, 1 out of every 4 Highlanders and RXs they sold were hybrids...

The Camry should make a lot of people happy, and really solidify hybrids into the mainstream... after all, a vast majority of the Camry's sold are the 4 cylinder ones anyway.

 

It's easy to criticize others.

If those "environmental" group are so concerned about our environment, they should spend money to research, develope, and build cars that's good for the environment instead of simply move their lips.

Talk is cheap.

 

I'd put my R&D into green. I wouldn't discontinue all high end > V6, but I wouldn't put any R&D into an engine that has the 'economy of a V8 with the power of a V12'.

And selling well doesn't mean it's a good thing. I much happier that Ford is selling all of the Escape Hybrids that they can make, since they're PZEV and get better milage.

But what's funny, and sad, is when this same group attacked Ford for not living up to their environmental promises, a lot of people on the Prius boards jumped right along with them and slashed Ford. Now Ford has, arguably, turned it around. Now the same group attacks Toyota for having a worse corporate fuel average than 20 years ago, for trying to stop the federal governments fuel economy from being raised (no excuse for this, at all), and for fighting California's clean air standards (again, no excuse) and suddenly the report is wrong?

 

Well i

 

Well i'm not one of them who attacked ford when they ran that campaign.

The report is not wrong because it attacked Toyota... the report is wrong because it plays into the myth that hybrids are no better than their conventional counterparts, and mentions the Highlander Hybrid gets 20 MPG, but doesn't mention any of the conditions, or mention that mileage is a complex picture to paint, especially with hybrids.

If Toyota's fleet wide average fuel economy has dropped the past 20 years, then has ANY manufacturer's fuel economy INCREASED in the past 20 years?

Since this organization has attacked two major car manufacturers, I guess it would only be fair that they attack all of the other soon.

Change is slow... that's all I have to say.

 

the reason why Toyota is putting out hybrids that lean towards more power is because that is what the great majority of people want. Toyota is good at giving people what the want and that is why they are successful.

it aint because they are environmentally conscious. that is something they do on their own accord AND also because that is what some, albeit the minority wants.

so what exactly is Toyota really guilty of?? providing for the needs of a greater segment of the population is all i can see that they are doing. they are guilty of addressing the desires of the "greeners" and currently do it better than any other major automotive company.

i can tell you right now that if we didnt want these high horsepower cars, its up to US to let them know and we ARE NOT doing that are we?

sure we as a group of Prius loyalists maybe but most of the US is not.

 

ya can't tow much with the Escape hybrid (1,000 lbs.?)

Whereas with the Highlander hybrid it's at least 4,000 lbs.?

'course, not everyone bought a HiHy for towing, I'm just saying. If ya need to tow something at all, no one looks at the Escape, plus ya plop that powerplant in a fullsize truck...then GM's 'hybrid' Silverado really looks silly!

Another reason the V6 has the towing capacity is the Otto cycle. I believe the Toyota V6 is NOT the Atkinson/Miller cycle (like the Prius), yet it still qualifies for SULEV emissions. Correct if I'm wrong here.

 

The Toyota V6 is not the Atkinson cycle like the Prius or the Escape Hybrid, that is correct.

 

Unlike the American auto companies, Toyota doesn't put all of its eggs in one basket. This peculiarly American fixation on guzzling gas is antithetical to the European and Asian mindsets but Toyota has begun manufacturing SUVs and pickup trucks to compete with GM, Ford and Chrysler on their own turf. If the price of oil continues upwards over time (we're in a little valley at the moment), then Toyota can afford to drop the guzzler segment of their line-up without much trouble. A wolf? No, just a car company that's smarter than most.

 

I agree. If you look at Toyota compared to other car companies (read: GM for example) they are much more diverse in the types of vehicles in their fleet...

It doesn't make them hypocrites or wolf in sheeps clothing that they make gas guzzlers but also spearheaded the Prius. They diversified, and the fact that they are diversified is the reason why when buying trends shifted drastically in September, for example, they were still able to show an increase of sales...

What's worse? A company like GM that is very clear about focusing just on bigger vehicles, or a company like Toyota that has diversified?

 

Toyota produces about 40 sedans for the Japanese market and about 7 or 8 (not sure about exact number) SUVs. They produce 12 sedans (including Lexus and Scion) for the US market and 9 SUVs (including Lexus). I think there is a concept in this country that bigger is better and they are giving us what we are asking for.

 

*SNIFF* *SNIFF* *SNIFF*

Methinks I smell a TROLL...

however, I needed a good chuckle today.

 

One of the reasons, not mentioned in any of the comments, that Bluewater is going after Toyota is because they are part of the Cabal that is legally challenging California's attempt to cut carbon dioxide. Forget the other issues. This is reason enough alone to attack Toyota. I believe that Honda is not part of this group.

It was mentioned elsewhere that Toyota has to produce all those low mileage SUVs and trucks to make sufficient profit. Odd that , considering that Honda has prospered without a significant presence in the gas guzzler market. Yes, they are in it, but not to the extent that Toyota and the Big 3 are in that market.

Arguably, Toyota has to compete in the playing field that they are dealt. At the same time, however, they could work to change that playing field by supporting serious taxes and/or restrictions on gas/carbon guzzlers. If everyone had to pay by the same rules that encouraged high mileage, they are in a position to kick nice person.

Ford is encouraging the Government to do something serious about carbon and to create an environment where their planned investment in hybrids can pay off. That's the ticket. Make sure that all these investments don't go to waste.

We've already had some slippage in high gas prices. If people perceive that this is just a bubble, this could damage efforts by Toyota and Ford to realize their considerable investments in hybrids.

 

Do these people want Toyota to just stop competing in the truck and SUV markets altogether? Why attack Toyota specifically for having gas-guzzling SUVs and trucks when in reality it's pretty much EVERY SUV and truck that gets crappy gas mileage. Launch an offensive against SUV and truck makers everywhere if you're concerned about bad gas mileage, but it makes little sense to go after Toyota when they have a car like the Prius.

 

The Camry is 99% likely to be a four cylinder hybrid.

The reason why the Highlander Hybrid and RX400h are "performance" hybrids is because they are considered to be premium, or exclusive vehicles. They are both top of the line, loaded, and carry quite a hefty premium. Thus they offer both performance and economy.

I've read that real world RX400h owners are averaging 25 MPG or above.

As stated by someone else, they should not compare a regular Highlander's EPA numbers to real world numbers for a HiHy. That's just flawed logic.

If anyone is to blame, it's the EPA for inflated ratings.

The Escape hybrid gets only marginally better economy than a HiHy, even though the HiHy has a lot more power and performance. And of course seeing as the Escape is a 4 cyl hybrid, it *should* get better economy.

Also, the Lexus LS hybrid will have "the performance of a V12 with the fuel economy of a V6". Lexus is not emphasizing super economy in this hybrid ... it will be a V8 hybrid, so even more so a performance hybrid than a HiHy. It will be an exclusive model. Would you rather own a hybrid luxury sedan, or a gas guzzling V12 luxury sedan?

Toyota's new GR V6 engines get great economy *and* emissions, as seen in the new Lexus IS, GS, and the Avalon.

The Avalon's 3.5L V6 for example gets over 30mpg highway, yet manages to have more power and refinement than a GM 3800 V6.

Over 30mpg highway from a V6 family sedan is nothing "amazing". Seeing that kind of economy in a RWD luxury sports sedan is amazing.

With regards to "green", green usually means environmentally friendly, and that is sometimes independant of fuel economy.

For example, say you have a hydrogen car that gets 10mpg. It's a VERY 'green' car, but it's fuel economy is horrible.

Likewise, ALL Toyota hybrids are "green", because of very low emissions.

Check out http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/

There you will see that for each class, Toyota vehicles tend to rank at the top, or near the top in terms of being "green".

If it weren't for Toyota and investing in "green R & D", many of the forum members would not be here today driving a Prius.

Toyota invested *billions* into making hybrid tech commercially viable and practical, and they did so before most other auto companies. Toyota continues to invest millions and millions, and has taken initiative in R & D. Toyota recently bought 60% of Panasonic EV, so it now owns it. Toyota and Panasonic are jointly working on battery and electric motor technology. Also, Toyota recently buying a stake in Subaru means closer ties to Fuji Heavy Industry, which too has experience with battery tech and electric motors.

Now the rest of the industry is playing catch up to Toyota.

Toyota is also investing in their engines. The GR V6 engines are an example.

More specifically, the Lexus IS350: over 300HP, over 270 lb-ft torque, fastest sedan in it's class, EPA of 21/28, and it's a ULEV-II vehicle.

Can you name me any other car in it's class that has such credentials?

I don't understand all this hate towards Toyota, because frankly, it is not justified.

Toyota has a diverse lineup ... yet people call Toyota "hypocrites" because of it.

The LC is a legendary off-roader ... you can't expect it to have exceptional fuel economy.

If you consider all of Toyota's SUVs and trucks, it's fleet average has obviously gone down. But so has just about every other automaker's.

The thing is, Toyota's lineup offers a lot. It's diverse; if you need exceptional fuel economy, you got several options, if you need a good off-roader, same thing. If you need a sedan, a crossover, a hybrid, or want a luxury vehicle, Toyota has that covered too.

If you want a compact from GM, you only have the Cobalt or the Aveo, both of which do not match a Corolla or Civic in economy. Even the Lexus IS250 gets the same economy as an auto Cobalt.

GM does not yet give a lot of options when it comes to fuel-efficient vehicles.

 

Toyota opposes it because it's not standardized legislation.

Toyota is totally fine with a new country-wide emissions standard, as well as a new country-wide fuel economy standard.