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In one of those cases, it isn't. The other is a maybe.

In both the Ford hit a car stopped in a freeway lane at night.

The one that isn't evidence happened in Texas. Don't know the lighting situation for the stretch of road where it happened, but the stopped car had lights off. The highway does have sections of 80mph speed limit, so everybody doing 90 is a reasonable assumption. Another car that just missed the stopped one may have blocked the Ford's view of it. Even without that factor, the speeds involved could entail no ADAS system could have responded in time to avoid the crash. IIRC, the Ford did brake before it happened

The maybe happened outside Philly on I95. Lower speed limits and likely better lighting than Texas, but the Ford driver was drunk. I call this a maybe cause they might not have driven another car without the ADAS, but plenty of people have been driving drunk before we had these systems.

Ford’s hands-free BlueCruise system was active before fatal Texas crash | PriusChat

Tesla's latest AP software will work with MobilEye hardware? This first edition Model S only has one camera and radar.
Tesla Autopilot AP1 vs AP2 vs AP3 - Differences Explained - AutoPilot Review

 

Not to nitpick but the first edition of the Model S (2012) had no AP hardware, which came out in 2014, yeah, the MobileEye one, but my first reply on that specific subject mentioned "any update", not just AP/FSD. If you look at Teslafi's firmware tracker, Pre Autopilot cars (ie, 2012-2013) are still receiving the latest 2024 update (2024.26.3.1) that my car is also receiving, that's 12 years since they left the manufacturing plant. Of course, it won't get all the bells and whistles that the newest Model S get but they are not "left in the dust" like other manufacturers do once they left the manufactures.

 

Please, you were implying all Teslas have ADAS equal to the latest cars out of the factory when you brought updates into the discussion. We weren't talking about any other car features in this thread.

 

Rereading that post, I said "My Prius Prime has a radar and camera and will NEVER see any updates to improve its lane assist capabilities whatsoever while Model S built in 2012 are still getting them" and you're right, AP1 will probably not get these updates as they are from MobilEye. They will have to come from MobilEye and is exactly what's wrong with other manufacturers when they need to do updates and why it's harder for them to do them. Too many third party products are involved that the car manufacturer has no control over. That doesn't explain though why my Canadian Prius Prime EV Consumption gauge only goes up to 10 kWh/100 km when the car averages 15 kWh/100 km while for the European Prius PlugIn, it goes up to 40 kWh/100 km. OEM are lazy when it's time to do upgrades, or are greedy, like charging hundreds of dollar for a map update that I get for free as part of the OTA update in my Model 3.

But it's still true, Model S built in 2012 are still getting updates. What other car manufacturers can say the same?

 

is your speedo set to kph?

 

Kalifornie.

 

ah, makes sense

 

Your Prius is old. And even some 4 year later high end Toyotas don't have good or any ADAS systems.

While my '19 Rav4 hybrid Limited does my wife's 2 years later more expensive Avalon doesn't. Mine works at night and in the rain remarkably well on well marked roads. Handles Interstate curves just fine. No passing ability other than after I pass it speeds back up to the setting I had set and the interval I had set. Prevents me from a dangerous pass

Don't judge a manufacturer by a long ago model or one without the options to enable ADAS to work.

And the roads I enable it on aren't ones where pedestrians or cyclists are allowed. Dogs and deer wander on but thankfully I haven't tested against those in tens of thousands of miles.

So my initial purchase does exactly what I want and hasn't needed any sort of update, OTA or not.

 

You see, that's the thing, any Tesla released when you got your Rav4 can still get better at its ADAS because of OTA Updates while your Rav4 has been frozen in time since it got out of the manufactures.

You say "Mine works at night and in the rain remarkably well on well marked roads" but what if Toyota could have optimized the code since you bought it so it also now works on "not so well marked roads" and would update your car to that code for free without having to go to a dealership for that upgrade, would you say no to that? What if they now say "Hey look, your car can detect if you're about to run a stop sign", here's a free upgrade, would you say no to that too?

 

I would say I have no needs or wants in both those scenarios.

If something works as I want, why do I want or need an improvement.

And, if I am the driver, I don't use my ADAS in any snow or urban setting where a stop sign might be involved. My ADAS does read speed signs. It does prevent lane merges that are unsafe. It helps me drive as the responsible driver. It does limit my speed and car to car interval and inside the lines car placement.

One free from those concerns, I can take my foot off the gas, stretch my arms and hands, wiggle my back and look at a bit of the scenery or the accident on the other side of the road.

And free to pay more attention to traffic patterns, upcoming turns, warnings of slowdowns or traffic enforcement activity, etc

I prefer something I am familiar with and whose limitations I know over some update I just got whose limitations and features I haven't yet learned

I made a living for 37 years producing software for the biggest customers in the world. I know what bugs are all too well, including those introduced via well meaning updates. I've seen operator errors losing $100M a night, debugged hardware errors at the transistor level, seen crashes because patches were not applied, probably more scenarios than most.

And read enough about update disasters like the recent one that took down so many businesses.

Just as I prefer stalks in emergency situations as controls I can intuitively grab, I prefer software that has limited functions over ones that have unknown as yet capabilities.

Rushing the newest and greatest into customer's hands has done what for Intel?

I guess I'm conservative or cautious. Though I still play on the bleeding edge where no lives or significant financial loss is at risk.

 

And cars don't get released with bugs already present? Bugs like my Prius Prime EV Consumption gauge that only goes up to 10 kWh/100 km while the car averages 15 kWh/100 km goes unfixed for what, 6 years now? Will it ever be fixed? Nope.

You never ran a stop sign by distraction? That's what I meant about warning you. It was just an example, there are plenty more but if you're fine your car the way it is, with its limitation, quirks and bugs, then so be it, but I'm not.

PS. I've also been programming for over 40 years and I've recently (being retired gave me free time) started to publish on github and fork some work too. You can see my work here:

SylvainGa · GitHub

 

That is all Level 2 ADAS is suppose to be.

It can be more capable, but when it can almost drive by itself, it needs tighter controls to account for the many people out there that will end up over estimating the systems' abilities. That is where Tesla has been lax.

Honestly, I think the unofficial Level 2+ is a bad idea, and these more advanced subsystems should all be treated as Level 3. What about Mercedes Level 3 system warrants that designation that TJA, BlueCruise, FSD, etc.don't?

*Even Tesla has warnings about using Autopilot and FSD in poor weather and sun glare. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-E5FF5E84-6AAC-43E6-B7ED-EC1E9AEB17B7.html

 

With V12.5, you can't look away from the road for more than a few seconds (so mikefocke accident gazing would need to be just q quick glance) and after a few of those, the system deactivates and gives you a strike. Five strikes and no one using that car can use its ADAS for a week. Who else is going that far?

And do you find acceptable that although your Subaru camera is able to detect driver distraction in some scenarios, it can be completely shut off via the menu, and it’s not required to be activated to use the driver assistance system?

 

What was it doing before NHTSA pressured Tesla into the recall? How about when their first system MobilEye?

Like Toyota with EVs, Tesla needed to be dragged into installing responsible safeguards for their ADAS.

It wasn't even on all trims for the year I have. You can also turn off all the passive safety features. Same as other manufacturers. It does have very insistent seat belt minders though.

Then again it doesn't have any feature that even sometimes hands off. Its(and an Acura) wheel sensor is sensitive enough that it'll alert when I hold the wheel too lightly. Subaru also hasn't been promising and selling full self driving.

 

if nhtsa pressure worked, they should keep it up until they are satisfied

 

Until the Supreme Court says differently.

 

Wheel nags and cabin camera (starting in 2021) but the wheel nags were defeated through the use of a wheel weight. Then Tesla added code to detect a constant wheel pressure (also in 2021 I think) and tell the user to remove the weight or the system will turn off. Then someone designed a board that sits within the steering wheel and do an up/down of the volume every 5 seconds to simulate someone using the wheel. Once this system is defeated, they'll think of something else. I think someone is working on a CAN bus device to act like a wheel nag. For mobile eye, I think it was just a wheel nag as well since the cabin camera was only starting to be installed in 2017 but not used to monitor the driver until 2021. It was planned to monitor the inside when used in robotaxi mode (and well, that didn't happened lol).

And again, what about Volvo? It's 2024 and they still don't have a cabin camera? BlueCruise also started to use a cabin camera in 2021, just like Tesla. GM started way before, in 2017.

Same with Tesla. Light hold with your finder isn't enough. I have to at least rest a hand on top of a wheel spoke for it to detect I'm holding the wheel.

Almost all accidents were with Autopilot and not FSD, which is a system similar to what Subaru sells, except it can handle more difficult curves and works even on "not so well marked road".

 

"As Ars has noted time and again, Tesla's Autopilot system has a more permissive operational design domain than any comparable driver-assistance system that still requires the driver to keep their hands on the wheel and their eyes on the road, and NHTSA's report adds that "Autopilot invited greater driver confidence via its higher control authority and ease of engagement."

The result has been disengaged drivers who crash, and those crashes "are often severe because neither the system nor the driver reacts appropriately, resulting in high-speed differential and high energy crash outcomes," NHTSA says."
Tesla’s 2 million car Autopilot recall is now under federal scrutiny | Ars Technica

In addition to a design that encouraged some drivers to overestimate its ability, Tesla's earlier systems took longer to alert for driver inattentiveness than others. With the crashes involving AP, that is what lead to the NHSTA issuing the recall. With some tests showing that there isn't a measureable difference before and after the recall, with questions of owners being able to opt out of the recall, the NHSTA is now looking into the issue again.

Tesla is allowing no-hands driving with Autopilot for longer periods. US regulators have questions | AP News
Tesla recalls nearly all vehicles sold in US to update software | AP News
NHTSA sends Tesla massive data request as it investigates Autopilot recall | Ars Technica

The NHSTA investigation took two years before they called for the recall.

If you think the others are just or more dangerous, petition NHSTA or Canada's equivalent to investigate them.

Does Volvo have a Level 2+ system? Are drivers posting videos of them driving hands free for extended periods, or other evidence that they are abusing or overestimating the system in numbers above the average?

Ford's Co-Pilot360 is a hands on system. Cars had, then they got the inside camera, and then they got BlueCruise.

I'd like all ADAS systems to have more than just a single steering wheel sensor, its why I opted for an Outback with the driver monitor, but that currently isn't required.

FSD is an extension of Autopilot. It adds some things others include in the ADAS package(lane changing), some they don't(auto navigation), and extends auto steer to surface streets and adds stop sign reading.

Since the hardware is the same, the only reason for Tesla to not have AP and FSD at the same capability on highways is greed. So it is likely that is something causes AP the trip up, it will also do so for FSD.

 

I wish there were some statistics that say teslas using autopilot crash more than other cars. There is an industry trying to say this, but the data says the opposite. Should the NHTSA mandate that all cars have ADAS and that users can't turn them off or on. Or is the driver still responsable? Realy I thought the NHTSA "fix" made the software perform worse in an effort to make sure it was not misused. I wish there was not an industry of people that don't drive teslas to come out and cut down the software.

2 problems here, what happens when the driver acts inappropriately and doesn't have an ADAS system, or one like mercedes that simply only works in a tiny number of roads in a tiny number of conditions. It is good that we have multiple manufacturers trying to solve the problem. I doubt NHTSA has fixed much here. With all safety systems, users will abuse them. Simply the much larger percentage of the population using autopilot than other adas systems would dictate larger numbers of accidents when abused. If 2 million drivers use one system, and 50,000 use a different one, and the first system has 3x the accidents is it worse or would you say it has a lot fewer accidents per mile or kilometer driven.

We know in the US and China drivers cause accidents. There is too little training. There is road rage, distracted driving, etc.

 

Here's one I've experienced with DRCC I think is interesting. DRCC set at 65 mph on Interstate with light to normal traffic. ( also happens on intra state hwys) Driver in front slows down 1 mph every mile or two (really slowly) DRCC slows at the same pace. After 10 or 20 miles finally notice, change lanes fo pass and resume set speed. Other driver speeds up shadowing the set speed in the right lane. Give the set speed some help to pass using the Go pedal. Finally pass at 80 mph. Hummm ?
Is there a name for that and how does FSD deal with situations like that? Does the driver even ever notice how those situations are handled by the sensors data stream while in light traffic? (and I'm not saying FSD would behave the same way I did in the situation above, so please don't respond only by pointing that out to me, thanks)