Featured Elon Musk’s big lie about Tesla is finally exposed

Lots of posts, but still can't get over the term big lie. Tesla used puffery which some people object to using, but all the car companies do it. A big lie is actually a lie that has consequences and my prime first hearing of it was hitler's big lie. FSD (supervised) beta has some problems and needs to be supervised for now. People abuse the system but they abuse all systems. Distracted or driving in bad weather, or when tired, sick, on drugs, or alcohol cause a great deal of the accidents. I have a feeling it will need more hardware before it really can be full self driving, but it is much improved since I first payed for it in 2018.

Remember Tesla wants to own this technology so they needed to step away. That way they can change hardware vendors or design chips in house and port software to whatever works best. Tesla's system works on any road, which is why there are more ways for it to get in trouble. They want an inexpensive set of hardware and software that they can put in all their cars and license to other makers.

Mercedes level 3 only works in restricted areas and is not in a good sample set of vehicles. I believe it is restricted to certain mapped safe roads in California and Nevada in the US and only in good weather. Other autonomous systems restrict speed and also a small geographical area and only a subset of roads there.

Different approaches as hardware improves will pay off. My brother recently bought a cadilac Lyric and loves the GM Super cruise for hands free but not attention free on highways. I believe that driver monitoring camera was first used by gm and is now in the tesla, and recently became hands free but not eyes free for some places.

I take over from auto pilot in construction zones and when bikes or motorcycles are around and unpredictable. I supervise closely if weather is bad. I think it was a mistake to get rid of the radar and sonar sensors. I know they did the radar partially for safety because if vision disagreed with radar then radar was often wrong, but this is a matter of more computing power and better software. Radar and sonar help in bad weather and emergency situations.

 

I'm pretty sure your in the minority here. Most people pay for this system so they don't have to pay attention on the road and try to blame the system for their own inattentiveness. Someone above also brought up another good point; Without training automatic muscle memory, would someone be able to react fast enough when the computer screams at them? Bottom line, if a person isn't paying attention, when the alarm sounds, they need to figure out what's going on then react - which would probably be too late.

There are multiple threads here, asking why the simple Toyota system didn't warn them of an impending crash.
There are probably questions on how to defeat the driver's attention system in other forums.

Just my humble opinion.... I personally turn-off my nag monitors and my dash board turned red several times and beeped at me. I've learned to touch my brake pedal, (slightly activate the switch), to keep that nag monitor from engaging. I used to just cover the brake pedal, but that wasn't enough for the nag monitors.

 

They don't need to figure anything. They need to pay attention to stuff so that they know what's happening even BEFORE the car gives its notice. Sheesz, why is it society in general wants to shift blame. Makes one wonder why there aren't more lawsuits by fat people standing on toilet seats, fall through & break their ankle - claiming insufficient warnings.
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I don’t believe this is the case.
Me and my wife would fit in the same category as @austingreen .

Yes, the marketing was puffery, but the onscreen directions when enabling any version of FSDx was always explicit about requiring drivers attention.
Elon has always talked about what he wants to do with too much optimism about time tables. This is bad. But the goal is always there and is something being worked on.

 

Most people that complain don't have the system. There is a whole industry to bring down tesla, and I am sure it has grown larger as tesla has grown. The system takes some getting used to so new drivers may not understand where it works and where it doesn't. After getting worse IMHO last year (I had it off with just adaptive cruise control and lane keeping on some bad updates) It has drastically improved in version 12. That should not lull you into not watching the road. In fact it now alarms faster if you take your eyes off the road. There are full warnings. Yes people abuse the system, and every auto safety system has enabled some to be worse drivers. Things are drastically better than 20 years ago, but cell phones and inattention are more of a problem with older cars than with teslas.

 

Moving the HQ out of CA does not mean that the Tesla employees in CA can not follow CA employment labor laws

Mike

 

The MB Drive Pilot may technically be a level 3 system, but its feature set is far below the Tesla FSD level 2 system

Here is a link to the MB system
DRIVE PILOT Automated Driving | Mercedes-Benz USA

It specifically says:

Required operating conditions
Building over a century of trust in drivers across the globe begins and ends with safety. DRIVE PILOT is ready to chauffeur you under conditions that help ensure a secure ride. Conditions include:

• Clear lane markings on approved freeways
• Moderate to heavy traffic with speeds under 40 MPH
• Daytime lighting and clear weather
• Driver visible by camera located above driver's display
• There is no construction zone present

Please review the Operator's Manual for the complete list of conditions required for DRIVE PILOT to engage.

Not only are those conditions very restrictive, just below that there is a map of where it is certified to drive. A few freeways in CA and a road to Las Vegas. That's it.
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Mike

 

And no owner used it without the Beta or Supervised moniker and it had always said in the car when activated (same for Autopilot) that you must look at the road and be ready to take over in an instant.

Of course it can't compare it to Mercedes Level 3 because of all the restrictions that must be in place before it can even be activated. If they would have used Autopilot instead of FSD, they would have probably got one disengagement, at the red light because it's not supported by Autopilot. Both Mercedes Level 2 and Autopilot works basically the same, except one works and the other doesn't. Looking at that video however, can you explain why Consumer reports gave Mercedes Level 2 a score of 10 out of 10 and 9 out of 10 for Autopilot in the "Capabilities and performance" criteria? But you're missing the point of that reply though, it was about "others having an inside camera" while Tesla "resisted". That Volvo had no camera to monitor me (just wheel nag) and it's from 2024 not some old ones from late 2010s. Of all the brands that focuses on safety, Volvo should have been the top one to have an inside camera, and yet...

Reason is simple, vertical integration is what allowed Tesla to be so high up there in the OTA Update capabilities while other struggles to even have their 12V battery not die while they try to update lol.

 

Holy cow, I’m surprised they used the term ‘chauffeur’.

 

Non thinking sensors could do better than a brain in situations like monitoring a roof top at a rally. The brains may be busy drinking coffee or texting their girlfriend or something. But someone with a brain has to be there to react to the warning. The sensor could be programmed to activate a carpet of bullets at the roof top but that’s not always appropriate.
If we don’t want to bother driving, there are other options, but not as easy. I know this is very basic to the discussion. I like the predictive parking warnings all around on my Prius, no more backing up into a garbage can. It’s great.

 

I just took 70 miles and back trips with my car and me driving the first day and her car and her driving on the second. Both 70 MPH well marked divided highways 4 lanes Interstate standards.

On my car I had the car doing lane keeping, interval keeping and speed keeping. I selected the largest interval possible. Hands on wheel. Eyes on traffic. On her car she had no assists on.

She has driven for 60 years zero accidents. With no assists on I frequently felt she was too close to the car ahead and was not allowing adequate reaction time especially if the vehicle ahead in her lane was a big truck or trailer and she was not able to see several vehicles ahead.

Of course we arrived home without incident in both cases. Except that I was frequently suggesting that she back off a bit and allow more reaction time. She would gripe that I let that other car cut into the gap all the while my car was slowing to restore the interval. My reaction was so I get home 5 minutes later and feel calmer.

All I want is an assist in relatively safe conditions with me hands on 99% of the time and monitoring 100%. I don't expect or need a urban or even suburban self driver. My '19 Toyota provides that.

 

Tesla chose the Autopilot name because they saw it has being like autopilot on a plane. What they don't say, and what the public doesn't know, is that pilots have to under go separate training before they can use the autopilot. They don't simply, maybe read a manual, or figure it out through trial and error.

Using ADAS correctly requires a more than what drivers get. My understanding is that the OpenPilot add on system makes the driver go through a tutorial before they can use it. The others need more than a 'you need to pay attention' statement.

Was that before NHTSA stepped in with recall talk?

BlueCruise, SuperCruise, and TJA all have limitations on when the driver can go hands free. I'm sure that is the case with all other hands free systems out there. The Level 2+ systems have some concern for public safety, or at least want to avoid being sued. The systems with capabilities beyond that have to show state authorities that they do work.

Tesla, or Musk, doesn't want to work with such constraints to develop a Level 5 system. It's the move fast and break things school of thought. Which is fine for something like a phone, but phones don't weigh thousands of pound and move at high speeds.

Either way, the video wasn't even using Mercedes Level 3 system, and the idiot was trying to use their Level 2 system hands free.

Years of talking full self driving will have an impact on the public consciousness. Tesla could have easily avoided having people call their Level 2+, non full self driving, system full self driving with one easy step.

You can't say a non-hands free system doesn't work when the tester is using it hands free. If you put a phone down on the table without hitting the speaker button, will you be able to keep speaking to the other person on the end of the line? No. The Mercedes system was actually impressive while being used incorrectly. I don't think my Subaru would have done as well. I have no intention of trying that out though.

That is the problem with Tesla calling FSD Level 2. Also Autopilot if you could be able to use it hands free. Level 2 is literally just adaptive cruise control with lane keeping. No mention being able hands off the wheel. With the unofficial Level 2+, the manufacturers are self policing by having limitations on when hands free can happen. Someone driving around FSD gets into another car with Level 2 ADAS might get into trouble overestimating what that Level 2 can do because Tesla is blurring the lines for their benefit.

That's easy. The tested Mercedes system scored much better in the "keeping driver engaged" and "unresponsive driver" categories. For systems that aren't Level 5, those are very important.

Yet they still scored higher in those two categories than Tesla.
CR Rates Active Driving Assistance Systems - Consumer Reports

The issue isn't about how well FSD can drive the car. It is about how people in groups are stupid. There are many people that will have a moment of idiocy. An ADAS could save them from that, but systems that aren't good all around can lead to increasing the number of those moments. It took outside pressure for Tesla to be serious about safeguarding against it. How many of the crashes with Autopilot and FSD could have been avoided if Tesla's "keeping driver engaged" and "unresponsive driver" systems were as good as Mercedes? How many if they were as good as Ford or GM?

 

The problem is, non Tesla drivers read the media hype and believe what they want to believe

 

What do you believe? I believe that Teslas are cars that I like but don't fully understand.

 

I never said I was using it hands free, but expect the car not to veer into incoming traffic either without telling me it had disengaged either! The system is supposed to alleviate the burden of keeping the car in its lane, and any curve other than a gentle highway curve and it fails miserably does NOT alleviate the burden but creates an added stress. I wouldn't spend a dime on a system like that.

One thing I do while driving in Autopilot is hold the wheel with my arm either resting on the door arm rest or the center console. On the Volvo, its wheel holding is so weak that I have to consciously follow the wheel with my hand instead of leaving the steering gently slide under my fingers while I keep pressure on the wheel. If I don't follow the wheel in the Volvo, it WILL silently disengage and being in a curve, something bad could happen. If this is what the competition is like, f#ck that, I'll keep my Autopilot. Oh, and it doesn't slow down for curves either and will allow you to set a cruise speed with lane assist enabled as high as you want no matter what the road it's active on? Such a useless system. Autopilot on roads other than divided highways limits the speed to 5 mph (10 km/h) over the speed limit.

LOL, of course it keeps drivers engage. It's useless and stressful. Might as well be driving by yourself. Still, others are still 'resisting" installing monitoring cameras...

You mean, having a system that is so weak that it's all but useless? No thank you. I hope they don't castrate Autopilot to the level of other Level 2 ADAS.

That's not what I'm asking. You're talking about the other categories, I'm talking about "Performance and capabilities".

 

So we roll the dice and hope someone in the public isn’t going to think auto pilot the salesman bragged about takes any driver input, and ends our life. So one more thing to add to drunk driving, reckless driving, and all that we were shocked to learn about in driver training.

 

i believe what the owners say. i don't understand any cars, but i'm not sure what that has to do with it.
every car company hypes their product. every car company fails to live up to their promises.
tesla takes a lot of heat for two reasons: some people hate musks politics, and many are trying to manipulate the stock.
i believe in personal responsibility. keep your hands on the wheel and your eyes on the road.

 

and way, way, way down on the list

 

There is no stupidity that a salesman will not go to to make a sale...

Self-driving car rear-ends another car after salesperson tells customer not to hit the brakes

 

i had a toyota salesman tell me that, i didn't listen to him