Earth Hour is everyone on board?

Re: No stamina points for this man...

NO, it an exercise in being a LEMMING.

If you want to really be AWARE, do something really constructive, like putting in Solar!!!

People that think that by just saying "Yeah, me too" really are not helping out.
Maybe getting off yer dead nice person and actually doing something like I did, is one helluve lot more of a constructive move!!!

 

Re: No stamina points for this man...

I'm not sure what the point of the hostility is. Sure a 7.5kw system would be nice, but if we can get folks to quit WASTING so much power in the first place we are all better off.

Which is better, you producing 7,500 kwh per year or me cutting back far more than that compared to the previous owners of this home? (I don't think I can cut out quite twice as much...but that is my stretch goal over the next year.) Guess which is going to pay back much more rapidly...

Yes, Earth Hour is only an awareness raising gesture, but if folks actually go around and turn off a bunch of stuff they normally aren't using anyway or that doesn't really need to be on, it just might become a habit. I'm of the opinion (based on observation) that very few folks have any idea how much energy they consume. If they become a bit more aware, they might just reduce it because it saves them money.

Seems like you are alienating potential allies rather than furthering your cause.

 

Re: No stamina points for this man...

You seem to confuse hostility with frustration!!! Just way too many folk blowing it off. In LA, we just had a election. One of the props was to install solar on the roofs of all city buildings. Even with those who bothered to get up off their fat asses and actually vote, it lost by 2 thousand or so votes. So now the city will not invest in that infrastructure, The people who voted it down and everybody else will have to pay more taxes, just to offset the cost of the power they could have had, and not have to pay for, only to have to pay more now for it anyway. MORONS!

You need to recalculate that. Since 08/04 I have generated 66,400 kWh of power. In a 67 month breakdown that's 991.04 kWh's per month, on average. which further breaks down to just under 31 kWh a day!

With the money I have saved my system is over a 1/4 paid off, I had originally planed on a 20 year MAX payoff, however with the way power rates are climbing, and the energy saving measures I have instituted here at the home, I think it will be more like 15 years now, maybe less! Whoo Hoo, 14 or less years to go till I'm in the black!!

I'm sorry, but turning off some lights and sitting in the dark, is pretty much like an ostrich putting his head in the ground and waiting for the problem to go away. That approach works really well!!! Specially for the predator!

I really don't care if takes PISSING OFF THE POPE. Just as long as the lemmings of the world snap out of it. You gotta do something to get something done!!! Turning off a light just don't cut it!

There are only only so many CFL's you can replace, So many Energy Star devices you can replace, your still CONSUMING. I know, I did all that. I have kWh meters on some devices full time in the house so I know what they actually consume. How about notching it up a step and GENERATE your own power and it will pay for itself. Sitting in the dark might pay for itself faster, but I would rather have a Cold Beer, Light, Heat and a Hot TV to watch a good movie on. It's even better when you know your not paying for the power to make that happen, your generating it!!

 

Re: No stamina points for this man...

Wow! Around here (Maryland) thats about $7000 worth of power. How much did the system cost?

 

Re: No stamina points for this man...

After ALL out of pocket costs, Electrician, Raw Stock Aluminum, Cost of Panels, Inverters, My Sweat Equity in doing ALL of the physical assembly, racking, roofing penetrations, and factoring in City of Glendale 50% rebate as well as the State tax credits...just under 28k! Not Bad. If I relied TOTALLY upon others , well more! But that's why they call it "Sweat Equity"

Things are a little different in G'dale now, but it's still a deal to go Solar. I just discovered a neighbor 5 doors up has gone Solar. I plan to stop by tomorrow and talk to him about it! I have a large system, if every house had at least a 2kW system, think of how much we ALL would save. A system that size should end up costing under 15k TOPS out of pocket per home!

 

Re: No stamina points for this man...

Many of us live in climates that are unlikely to get that much production from a similarly sized array. It's great that you are willing to supply your neighbors, but I don't intend to consume that much in a year. In fact, that is nearly twice what I would like to get down to (including HVAC.) My consumption this month is on track for under 500 kwh and I would like to get it down to 400-450 kwh/month.

And there is the problem. That's about three times as long of a payout compared to many of the other things that people can be doing. If you want the public to make a real dent, do the easy/less expensive stuff first, it will have more impact on fossil fuel consumption. We should be able to reduce generating capacity in this country (shutting down older fossil fuel plants.) New/replacement capacity should be renewable.

Icarus is right about cutting your consumption first.

I would like to see solar water heating and solar PV become a norm for new home construction, but it is a tougher sell to retrofit.

So are you saying you are consuming nearly 15,000 kwh/year? That doesn't sound terribly efficient for your climate. Have you really optimized that much or are you producing so much extra power that you don't have any incentive to further improve efficiency? If you are using an extra 5,000 or so kwh simply because you can, then you are skewing your economics.

I've not advocated actually doing without, just being more efficient about doing it. You are applying the same fallacy as the denialists employ: that being more efficient means doing without.

 

Since I work in the PV/Solar consulting biz,,, I will chime in with my 2kw worth.

I applaud all the conservation effort, as well as the PV installations,,, but,,,

I know we have had this conversation here before,, but here it is again.

Our rule of thumb is that for PV solar is this. For every dollar spent on conservation you save ten in PV costs. Conservation is almost ALWAYS cheaper than generating more power. IMHO, if you are not doing everything to conserve, but you are wanting to install PV you've got it wrong.

I am not saying that we have to go back to the cave,, quite the contrary. Do we really need to heat/cool/light McMansions with too many tv's on unwatched, computers running with no one using them etc?

We live for 6 months of the year in a small solar powered house. We use less than 1 kwh/day and we live quite well. In our other house we use ~2 kwh/day.

I get calls all the time from people who want to do the Sexy thing and put in PV. Looking at their usage and you realize that they are amazingly wasteful.

Icarus

 

Re: No stamina points for this man...

I won't fault ya there, Still, you can generate considerable power in the more northern climates. Yes you will generate less, but then you could increase the system size. I have things like Pool Pumps and Hot Tub pumps to contend with. I would venture to guess that many states probably do not have as many pools as So Cal does but my house is unique.for that matter so is everyone's. One thing that ALL homes have in common however is they all need a Solar System.

This where you and I really differ. I see it as ...."Well lets buy this really big band aid now, so we can spend even more money later to peel off the band aid, and replace it with, while true, a even more costly 'Operation", which ultimately, in conjunction with SOME of THE Energy Specific Saving ideas you do endorse, and we can then DOUBLE BILL the patient.

NO NO NO !!! Just go for the operation now The Big O says he has got a lot of money for Solar, lets see it. We want a Solar Bailout!!! Start mandating ALL new construction incorporate a system that would meet at minimum 40% of the typical homeowners needs, with the option of going larger to fit his/her needs!

This is one thing i agree with you 110% on. I have been in many threads with the gentleman and he's "The Real Deal". I respect what he says. I have LISTENED and learned from the man!!!
God Bless you I.

Don't even make it a choice. You can't buy a Prius without the HV Battery, so you can't build this house with out Solar. You get a Toilet, A Shower, and you get a Solar Pkg. Period!!! As far as a retrofit, that's where the rebates and tax incentives come. Make it so cheap and easy to install, and it really is not that difficult to have done, that a home owner would have to be nuts, not to invest in the system. If and when he buys a another house without Solar make sure to make the Homeloan X number of dollars larger, just enough on the Mortgage that that money will pay for the Solar package. When you sell the house, its now worth that much more because of the Solar Pkg. That's the big reason I jumped when I did. The programs are still out there. Now folks just have t take advantage of them!! Solar water heating while efficient now a days, is non worker for me. I used that space for the Solar Pool Heater. It keeps the indoor pool at 90' with only 1 hr of pump operation a day. Which, by the way is the next item to be replaced with a GREEN counterpart lo amp pump!

I do however HIGHLY endorse TANKLESS water heaters. You can practically pace them anywhere, they use no electricity, well the ones I bought dont, and are so damn efficient that the exhaust flue vents just barly warm air. Which is a good indication of the BTU transfer onto the HOT WATER line!!

I think your numbers pertaining to my operation are skewed. It works out to keep my home at "Station Keeping" the point where the disk on the meter stays absolutly DEAD still is .980 kW. I know this because I went to the trouble of installing the computer monitoring system for the solar, and it will give you instantanious indication of power generated. When the house is in "Nomal" we are at home mode it draws .980 kWh's.using that as a starting point that works out to approx 8584.8 kWh/year. True When we and my wife are home, we are not your average couple. WE are both engineers!! It's perfect, SHE GETS IT!!! SMART!!! Lucky me, anyway, I have a Amateur system that most folk do not and it uses POWER there is no GREEN RF Hardware1!! So most people with my system size will have better results. My wife has control of the A/V stuff. It too draws, and is more than most fok would have, by hey, folks are getting way more HD Savvy so that factor will disappear over time. So lets add a kW to the equation, thats 9584/year. Before all the GREEN upgrades, and there were a lot of them I figure it was around 12,000 kWh or so /year. I figure I went as low as I can go and cut 3,000kWh off per year. That's a lot!
I think its a crime that ALL our homes have these little energy Vampires that are constantly sucking 10 watts here, 8 watts there, all for the sake of" Instant On" functionality. I remember when yu hit a Power Switch, the item in question was COMPLETELY DEAD, not sitting there sucking away. That's one of my biggest Pet Peeves. Use Non Volitile Ram in the TV's, DVD'Players, all that WONDERFUL electronic crap we all LOVE to pay with. Make them so when they are OFF it MEANS OFF!! We get that system going and watch how fast you can shed that unwanted kWh FAT!!!

Naw, I am a realist, If you want it done right, ya gotta do it yerself!!!
I generate all but $300/year of power. If you consider that includes the $100 "Fuel Surcharge" that means Electric is $200 per year. Like I said, the price is only going to go up. If I would have gone for the full 10 kW package the City of Glendale would be cutting me a check every year!

Shawn I have to say I do enjoy some of the points you present. I will be the first one to stand up and say this boy gets t!! I just can't go along with this Lemmingesque thing of the turn off your lights for a hour and feel real good about yourself, until next year when it comes time t do it all over and 99.9% of the lemmings realize, "Oh Dear, I really didn't do hardy anything, damn, But hey it's next year already, maybe now I'll get off my duff turn a light on and see what I can get to, or out of!!! Sigh!!!

Your turn!!!

By the way I think I am going to have to ask you to join my Friends list!!

 

980 kWH! Christ, that's almost triple what we use! Conseration > Efficiency > Generation. When the economy turns around and my income stops shrinking, we will defo spring for a ~2kW system. First, I've got to square away our crazy inefficient crawlspace. We're getting a new roof soon, and that's also a pre-req for the array. We replaced our pig frige in january, also a pre-req. Shawn's right about the low hanging fruit. It makes absolutely no sense to build out solar systems when that money could be used to cut consumption in half. Decommission a few dirty coal plants by reducing consumption, then build that sexy CSP plant in the Mojave.

The thing I don't like about the lights is that it doesn't quite send the right message. The implication is that to conserve you have to sacrifice and party like it's 1799. We use ~4350 kWh/yr, about the same as the average Japanese household. We live quite comfortably, we just don't throw money out the window every month on our energy bill. Smart metres are going to be a boon, I think, because people will start to connect energy usage with their various activities/applicances. Being able to see how much your dishwasher is costing you every month would be huge. It can't happen soon enough.

 

We use ~200kwh a YEAR when we are at out off grid house. Add to that ~10 gallons of propane for the fridge, stove and water heater per month. Wood heat, demand propane hot water, wood fired hot tub.

When we are in our grid tied house we use ~ 5kwh/day plus about 100 gallons of propane per year. Our biggest energy hog is the hot tub. Passive solar/wood/propane heat, solar preheated propane demand hot water.

As I have always said,, you can live well, you don't have to live in a cave,,, in fact we live quite comfortably.

Icarus

 

I'm participating in "Earth Hour." I have 16 solar panels (unfortunately they supply only a small fraction of the kilowatts I use), LED and flourescent lights, solar flashlights, and I care very much about the environment. I will take part in any event that highlights the need to save energy. I agree that we need action instead of symbolism, but until our sorry corporation-bought politicians get their act in gear, I say let's show them that the people want energy conservation NOW.

 

My rhetorical question to you is,,,, if you have 16 solar panels, but they only contribute a "small fraction" of your kwh use,, are you, have you done EVERYTHING you can to reduce consumption? My guess that your biggest kwh hog is A/C. Have you considered a ground source heat pump? Do you use waste A/C heat to heat your water? Can you turn up the t-stat a few degrees? Turn down the pool heater a few degree? Have you unplugged the beer fridge in the garage? Have you replaced your gigantic 10 year old fridge with a properly sized new energy star that uses 1/10 the energy? Have you added insulation to your roof,, installed awning/plantings to shade the house?

There are a million small things that we all can do, many of which we "think won't make a difference" or " will cost too much".

As I always say,,, $1 spent in conservation save $10 in PV cost.

Icarus

 

Tripp, that's "Point" .980kwh. or 20 watts less that a kWh!

A water bed heater, 2 refrigerators, pool pump, ENERGY SUCKING VAMPIRES, I.E. everything else in the house that does NOT turn completely off.... This amount is AFTER I CFL'ed, Energy Starred ALL major appliances.and did what I could. It's still up there. But it's coming down!!

Don't kid yourself, your making a difference. The fact you started small and are working your way up is GREAT! At least your making a Positive effort. Well Done Lad!!!

 

Re: No stamina points for this man...

A lemming? Wow...

Just because some people don't have solar panels doesn't mean they care about the environment any less than you. Different folks have different ways to consume less energy. Not eating meat is certainly one way, an effective one at that.

The whole point of "Earth Hour", as I see it, is to raise awareness of how electricity usage contributes to our dependence on fossil fuels. Anything to make people aware of how much we're wastng is a good thing. Attitudes change slowly, but we have to start somewhere (like, New Zealand...)

 

If it raises awareness and causes people to rethink their wasteful behaviour, then it's a good thing. If you're already way ahead of the curve, as I suspect many of us here would be, then why knock the effort?

 

Re: No stamina points for this man...

If you're talking factory raised cows I agree. But if we eat a mule dear now & then (not everyone can of course) or pull a trout out of the lake, etc, those kind of sources get a free pass.

 

Every hour at the EVnut Ranch is "Earth Hour." Lighting around here is on an as-needed basis only - and even then it is more likely to be 5 W of LED than anything greater.

We fuel an EV at our house. The EV uses as much as the house does... and yet our combined consumption is still about half of the average in our neighborhood. It drives people nuts when they find out that my gasoline bill is near zero AND my electricity bill near zero.

 

Someone needs to remember that not every home location is well
suited for solar, especially under the cozy green canopy that's
one of the nice things about the new england area. As far as
I know nobody bothers to design PV systems to work in a partial
shade scenario; all the panels are in series so it's an all-or-nothing
rig that needs 100% full exposure. [and WHY doesn't anyone do
series/parallel arrangements that can handle that gracefully?]
.
I would also suggest that a convincing argument can be greatly
aided by a pass or two over its grammar and spelling...
.
_H*

 

The Siemans inverters DO use a Series / Parallel system. My 2500U inverters take 10 panels in series, and 2 strings of 10 in Parallel. 20 panels generates 2.5kW out of the inverter. I have 60 panels!

As far as shade trees go, You DON'T have to mount the panels ON the house, just out in the open. If you have to trim, or remove a tree, do it!