E85 Prius in 2008?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeSF @ Apr 28 2007, 12:07 PM) [snapback]431713[/snapback]</div>

Yes, that is a net increase in energy. If the original source is a non-renewable like natural gas, it doesn't make much sense, however. If the original source were hydro or nuclear it would make more sense from sustainable energy standpoint, but you would still be competing with our food production requirements: Cow-corn is a staple in the production of beef...

Brazil's ethanol returns 100 units of energy for every 20 units of input energy, I believe. They use sugar cane instead of corn.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fan-atic @ Apr 28 2007, 01:25 PM) [snapback]431724[/snapback]</div>

You left out the most important part. Rape of the Brazilian rain forests. Slash & burn for cane. Rain forest soil is extreamly poor. Brazil puts NOTHING back into the land ... in stead, after a couple years of use, they simply burn more rail forest, because after a couple years of crops the soil is made steril. Millions of Tons of carbon into the atmosphere by burning ... for what? A couple years of crops, and wonderful alcohol fuel. Meanwhile, entire species of plants/insects etc are made extinct ... stuff that we could have used to cure diseases, possibley. Hell yea! Burn baby burn!

They also burn the rain forest to grow crops for raising beef. Just lovely.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ May 27 2006, 08:19 PM) [snapback]261881[/snapback]</div>

And this is why I hope they will try a diesel/electric hybrid with recapture (like the mercedes). with that and lithium we should see 150+MPG.

I can always wish, and dream

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ May 27 2006, 08:19 PM) [snapback]261881[/snapback]</div>

what about butanol? I'm curious to see that, cause BP is doing research now on butanol, and from what I've read 99% of the cars out there can run it unmodified...

 

We still dont know the carcinogenic output from ethanol. It is not the answer to the oil problem, just a weak patch. Your prius would not be getting the same MPG on E85. If anything a bio diesel would be the answer, and a diesel requires NO modifications to run on either fuel, dino or bio. At least we know what exits the tail pipe of a diesel, and bio has no sulphur in it so the particulate filters they are using now can do a more efficient job of eliminating NOX and other pollutants that diesel emits.

that and you get more Biod per bushel of soy than you ever get from anything for ethanol, and it is cheaper to make.

 

Good or bad E85 is a real fuel here to stay.
Good or bad at current most comes from corn, about 10% is imported from Brazil and another few % comes from cheese whey, beer waste and other and now finally...cellulose.
Also for better or worse Cellulose ethanol is going to be the next big thing, the prices of any energy fuel weather from crops or fossil are going to continue to grow and be used. the disturbing aspect is as fast as any renewable is made it is gobbled up just as fast or not as fast as production and use of fossil fuels. It has taken us about 6 years to replace just %3 of our fuel with biofuel. Yet consumption goes up a couple percent per year. This is scary.
Yet you can see what this is doing to prices.
Good or bad the higher price of Ethanol is going to make sourcing it from new feed stocks viable. In time the value of any energy may likely be based on its BTU's
It has been said that the best cure for high prices is high prices. Gas at $4 $5 $6 to $10 and then more is going to make "alternatives" such as cellulose based ethanol and even the current cost for butanol at $4 per gallon seem cheap!


Either way things are going to change. And at horrible costs financially and other.
I can actually see rednecks mortgaging there homes for the "right to drive" some 12MPG 70's/80's truck and pretend things are "they way it used to be" until everything they have is gone.
Fact is driving in the US is going to be more like it is in other places. A luxury reserved for only those who can afford it when the time comes.
However we must remember that people seemed to live just fine for thousands of years before the age of automobiles and electricity. Just not in such large numbers are today. But realistically speaking that will change too as resources are limited.
It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeSF @ Apr 28 2007, 01:07 PM) [snapback]431713[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Apr 28 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]431719[/snapback]</div>

Once they have an initial batch of ethanol couldn't they switch over to ethanol to run the stills instead of natural gas? This would start a perpetual motion cycle where there was the initial energy investment and then from there it is self powered.

Does that energy estimate include how much gets used to harvest the crops?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ May 5 2006, 09:19 AM) [snapback]250165[/snapback]</div>

Yea! If GM can sell guzzlers running on fuel that costs more to make ... and get worse mileage, then heck! They ought to too! Best of all, since mpg is only calculated on the part of the mixture that is actually gasoline, they too can put out inflated / false mpg ratings all the while getting worse mileage.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Apr 28 2007, 12:28 PM) [snapback]431688[/snapback]</div>

check out a "closed-loop" ethanol plant at the link below:

http://www.e3biofuels.com/index.php

They claim: We can turn corn into clean-burning ethanol for our cars without using huge amounts of fossil fuel.

We can protect our water from its No. 1 pollutant—manure from cattle feedlots and dairy farms—and protect ourselves from global warming air pollution.

Great idea if it works....