e-4WD?

Stop the presses: Hey I know this is a Prius thread but that press release says the Rav4 Hybrid gets 4.9L/100Km which translates to 48 mpg! If that is truly the case that may very well be our next car. Wow a mini-SUV with 48 mpg - Really!

We've looked at the Rav4 (non hybrid) and really liked it. It has gauges in front of the driver, lots of storage, a spare tire, many of those things that are in question with the Gen IV.

If the Rav4 Hybrid comes in under $30K there won't be much of a question that we would go that way instead of the Gen IV.

 

That is on the European NEDC test cycle.

NEDC also gave the 2011 Volt/Ampera 5.0L/100km or 47 mpg (US) running only on gas yet the Volt got 35 city and 37 combined EPA. The NEDC test uses a city-oriented cycle so that implies the RAV4 hybrid might be around 36 mpg EPA combined.

That's still very good for a small SUV.

 

Well at 36 mpg I wouldn't consider it. At that mpg rating the Honda CR-V would be a better buy. Guess I'll have to continue to consider the Gen IV.

 

Or just wait awhile longer for Toyota to announce official EPA estimates. My 36 mpg was just an approximate guess that I didn't try very hard to get right. Maybe they can 38 or even 40 mpg combined EPA.

 

If it doesn't get close to 40 mpg or more, Toyota better not price this significantly more than the top trim gas-only Rav4. While I'm sure it'll still sell, a lot of people may opt to just get the "cheaper" gas version, or a competitor's vehicle instead if the hybrid version suffers from the "hybrid premium" price increase.

Since a top trim Rav4 costs about $28k, my guess is the hybrid one will be $32-36k for the barebones/top trim ones. I'm sure I'm wrong, but once you start going north of $30k, you're definitely going to start losing sales if the mpg or the ride quality isn't significantly better than everyone else's offerings.

 

Can the hybrid Auris tow the same load as the ICE model? We are getting the ICE Auris as a Scion, and I know it will have a tow rating of zero, like every car of the past ten years or so in the US. Frame strength and tow bar mounting are only part of the criteria going into the tow rating.

The RX is a tall Camry wagon with a little more ground clearance. The AWD on the hybrid and ICE is asymmetrical, and is mostly intended to give a little more traction in bad weather. I wouldn't drive it in areas that I wouldn't drive a car.

You are mistaken about my assumption. It is thus, two motors, even if half 'sized', will cost more than one, and differentials are old tech. Two motors would require the development of the control software and systems. I didn't know that the RLX hybrid is $10k to $15k more than the RX400h until after my first post with spelled out assumption.

IIRC, the NX hybrid gets 33mpg combined EPA. Being shorter and lighter, the Rav4 one should do better, but I'd say 36mpg is the highest of possible.

 

Yes, the STi does well on gravel. It also breaks down from rallying, a lot! I've watched the shows. But as you said, the cars that are used for rallying are not even close to a stock one. Roll cages, super engine mods., transmission mods., etc. etc. I laughed when I listened to an interview of one of the WRC drivers, where he complained that, even though they had to drive through a city between sections, it was hell as the car rides so rough and is so noisy inside. Something expected when racing, but not when driving through a city.

Oh, and you kind of glossed over my final comment about what the heck IS "off-road" anyway. A gravel road IS NOT "off road".
I suspect the statement "not intended for off-road use" is a legal term to allow denial of warranty claims in certain situations.

 

Auris Hybrid is only rated for 345kg, so a small trailer. This is one third of what the diesel is allowed to pull.

 

This.

(huge aside)

Years ago when I was nurturing serious interest in grassroots motorsports, I did Solo II's regularly and was studying what it took to field serious efforts. With some luck, I also got some non-navigating navigator seat-time in a serious amateur Evo VII that was intended for Rim-of-the-World SCCA ProRally.

The first thing for this sort of homologation racing is if you can't get a body-in-white (i.e. a fresh-from-the-factory "shell" if you will), you fully-strip an existing car, usually a bare-bones model (at least for the Evos, that's the RS models). Then you re-weld the whole thing and convert all the spot welds to seam welds, which takes upwards of a hundred man-hours of work and usually adds a not-insubstantial mass (~100 lbs?) to the car, but adds several-fold of rigidity and durability to the structure. Then you integrate (read: not bolt-in) a full racing roll cage (kind of a misnomer, as it is more than just a protective cage, but an engineered addendum/space frame). The entire dash and rear shelf area (in a sedan body) is basically a fabricated metal structure that is part of the cage and adds significant rigidity to the body. Unless we're talking about a factory effort that wants to maintain the illusion that the car is somehow still related to the street product, the dash is ditched in favor of customizable digital instrumentation and telemetry that is what is easiest to get working with the distinctly non-production ECU.

Then you start thinking about powerplant and suspension, and outwards.

A race car, even one based on a production car, is a far, far cry from a road car. The only thing that might be close are true homologation specials [i.e. purpose-built race cars slapped on with the bare minimum of parts to make them street legal, usually built at a huge loss to the manufacturer at a minimum of units (~100?) for compliance with sanctioning-body "production car" requirements, even when sold at seemingly exorbitant prices several-fold of that of related models], which have been more-or-less regulated out of existence by most sanctioning bodies.

 

The Lexus NX hybrid AWD is already sold and has "eAWD" i.e. an additional MGR on the rear axle.
The RAV4 Hybrid will use the same Lexus NX powertrain (with a 2.5L ICE)

 

Sounds like the amount the hybrid Camry is allowed in Australia. Now, outside Australia, is it not allowed to tow because of tow bar mounting place, or did Toyota bow to the Australian market wants?
Sounds like the Auris towing in Europe is more because of market forces than technical aspects of the frame.

And the car companies engineers and/or lawyers may call it anything without pavement.

Those are trucks, not cars. The lower ground clearance, and generally less frame space, of a car like the Prius may make it too difficult to install Toyota's current eAWD system.

 

lol, sorry for that but it is SUV, it will not get 40 MPG. And yes, it will likely be around $5k more than 4cly Rav4. This is same platform and powertrain as NX300h, which gets 33 MPG... so RAV4 will likely get 34 MPG due to lower weight than NX. European specs are released and it is 0.5s faster 0-62mph but gets only 0.1l smaller consumption due to European test cycle already loving hybrids in the city.

So yeah, it is going to be expensive for sure... Cheapest NX300h starts at $40k. You can call it hybrid premium all day long, it wont lower the price. On the other hand, it will be quieter, go faster, be cheaper to maintain and fuel than 4cly version. I doubt they expect huge sales in the USA, this will likely be built for Europe and Japan.

as to the towing, both RX and Rav4 AWD models are rated to tow same amount as their petrol siblings... this is new for Toyota hybrids.
Rav4 Hybrid AWD is rated to tow 1,650kg.

 

2015 Frankfurt/IAA Auto Show Prius Second Showing | Page 7 | PriusChat

2015 Frankfurt/IAA Auto Show Prius Second Showing | Page 7 | PriusChat

 

I wonder whether it will add to the power output as Toyota claims that the E-Four Rav 4 will do: "in addition to great fuel economy, RAV4 Hybrid adds extra thrills with more power, improved acceleration and Electronic On-Demand AWD-i"

 

I think that statement is a comparison of the hybrid Rav4 to the base ICE engine model. AWD can help getting a car rolling from a stop quicker, or with a heavier load, but I don't recall the AWD RX hybrid having a higher total power rating than the 2WD one.

 

I agree with you. It depends on the comparison. With the Rav4 hybrid they are comparing two completely different drivetrains, the hybrid with an HSD and "E-four" and the regular model with a conventional ICE. They don't make that claim with the Lexus NX hybrid because the non hybrid has a stronger turbo 4.

With the Prius the comparison will be HSD with and without E-four. We also don't know whether the Prius with E-four will be tuned any differently. I personally wouldn't mind some drop in fuel effeciency in exchange for an increase in acceleration since the law of diminishing returns means that any increase over 50 mpg won't save much money anyway. Thus I worded my question optomistically even though I have no idea of the answer.

We will find out in the next couple of months.

 

Toyota said at IAA Frankfurt that the RAV 4 would be the first vehicle to feature e-4WD on a hybrid,so either the RAV 4 will go on sale before Prius or Europe won't get e-4WD on Prius 4 .