Driving the Prius without the Smart Key?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZA_Andy @ Jun 13 2007, 05:09 PM) [snapback]461117[/snapback]</div>

Because some people always prefer others to protect them from harm and don't feel thats something they should take any responsibility for. These people also are the first to point fingers and blame someone else when they do something stupid.

"I drove off without the key and ignored the warning beeps and the big yellow warning light and shut the car off and couldn't restart it, how could Toyota be so stupid as to make that possible?"

My dad was parked in a parking spot once and went to leave the spot by pulling forward into a dead spot in front of him instead of backing out. Unbeknownst to him that space had a parking curb and the ones on either side did not. he drove over the curb hanging the car up on it. His response? "That should be illegal!" Illegal? To have a parking curb between two parking spaces? What kind of logic is that.

Its attitudes like this that forced Toyota to implement the maddening nav and phone lockouts on Toyota and Lexus cars. Thanks.

I drove my 60 year old mother out to dinner tonight in the Prius. I got out real quick to get something with her sitting in the passenger seat, of course I had the SKS key. The three beeps went off and the light came on. She immediately noticed it from the passenger seat and her response was "My God, whats wrong with the car?". If SHE noticed the beeps and the light from the PASSENGER seat, I don't know what more Toyota needs to do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 14 2007, 01:17 AM) [snapback]461394[/snapback]</div>

Yes, agreed. Somehow those who know they need a key and have no problem having it with them to drive any other car want Toyota to invent complex anti-stupid systems to prevent them not having to do the same thing when driving a Prius.

The gradual creep of protections necessary to defend idiots from themselves creates a spiral of dumbing down which clearly leads some to believe they shouldn't have to think for themselves, yet they can always find excuses for why others should do it for them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZA_Andy @ Jun 14 2007, 06:19 AM) [snapback]461455[/snapback]</div>

I think that's not a very constructive attitude, and I'm way too old for that "style" of debate.

As a system designer, my job is to ensure the usability of the system and the enjoyment of the users. I constantly think of ways to make the system work better and save users from unnecessary headaches (like the freaking seatbelt beeps!)

Since the SKS is a rather new automotive technology, it is not as ubiquitous and familiar to most drivers as the seatbelt is. Even the Geico caveman can tell what's wrong when the seatbelt icon flashes. But unless he has thoroughly read the owner's manual and made mental notes on some of the more obscure icons, it is very easy not to know off hand what that flashing icon means, especially if this happens several months after he first read the manual. Moreover, this situation is more likely encountered by a secondary driver who probably hadn't even seen the manual. For these reasons, it would be prudent to implement proper alerts when the car starts moving without a key - rather than do nothing.

I think I have said all I need to say on this subject and will withdraw from this thread since it's becoming quite unproductive and unconstructive. I was hoping for a more reasoned debate among adults. But alas, that was not to be. Oh well. Cheers!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zenMachine @ Jun 14 2007, 08:49 AM) [snapback]461468[/snapback]</div>

This is a good point. I also do systems design and user interfaces, and I find that I agree with both sides of this debate. Toyota's SKS gives an adequate warning when you get out of a running car with the key, but given the newness of the technology, it's easy to miss or misunderstand. The first time I did it, I knew something was wrong because I heard the warning beeps, but I didn't know what they meant. I had read the manual cover to cover, at least two times, and I am a very technical person, but there are a lot of beeps and tones to learn. Now I know right away, because I have become accustomed to the Prius. If a stern voice had said "Hey Stupid, you have the key in your pocket!", I would have known right away that I had a potential problem. Users often require more explicit prompting when they first use a system, while preferring less obtrusive interaction once they are accustomed to it.

As for user interface or systems design, there is one unarguable point: if people have a problem using your system, you have a problem with the design. You may ask yourself why they did it that way, or how they can be so stupid, but if that's the way they do it, you have a problem. There are always trade-offs between cost, safety, and usability, but within the limits of these trade-offs there is often room for improvement.

Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 14 2007, 01:17 AM) [snapback]461394[/snapback]</div>

There are several people in this thread including me who have said that they didn't notice the warning beeps or the indicator icon on the dash. Okay, your 60-year-old mother noticed. I am a few years younger and I didn't hear the three little beeps. My boyfriend (a year younger, sitting in the drivers seat) didn't hear them at all or notice the key icon on the dash. I only know there are three beeps because we did a test sitting in my driveway. I didn't know at the time when I had left with the key and walked away from the car. So, what's your point? Is your mother a member of the user testing panel for Toyota? Is she she so old and oblivious that for HER to notice anything it must really be noticeable (this is what I'm inferring from your comment)? I HAVE read the manual and I make sure I look up anything new that I don't understand. It doesn't make me or any of the many other people who have had similar experiences idiots because we didn't NOTICE the warning signal. I didn't IGNORE the warnings, I just didn't notice them! Come to think of it, I know I'm not stupid, so it must be because I'm OLD! :lol:

I agree, Toyota can't idiot-proof everything. For example, I don't think people have much of an excuse for running out of gas if they deliberately ignore the fact that they've been down to one pip for the last 30 miles and now it's flashing, and they still continue to drive past gas stations. I can understand that one could miscalculate and get stuck in some remote part without enough gas, but, while that would be unfortunate, it's not Toyota's shortcoming. They provide continuous indication of approximately how much gas you have, and give you ample warning when it's getting low.

And, automakers do build in a few other things to make it harder to do something stupid and I am very grateful for that. For example, how many people have locked themselves out of a car with the keys still inside, or worse, still in the ignition with the engine running? I have done that and it's really a hassle! You can't do that with the Prius and most other more-recent models. Do you have the attitutude, well, it's stupid not to make sure the key is on you when lock the car and why should car design help prevent you from doing that?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zenMachine @ Jun 14 2007, 08:49 AM) [snapback]461468[/snapback]</div>

I've given my reasoning on the subject, and to characterize it as anything but valid reasoning, even if not in accord with your own, is rather more dismissive than constructive of itself.

If, as you contend, the issue is one of safety, one would think it beholden on the operator of the vehicle to take necessary steps to ensure the vehicle is operated in as safe a manner as is possible, even if only as a matter of self-interest. If the 'safety' aspect of this is therefore your concern, you should not be driving the car without the fob in your possession, and suggesting Toyota ought to do something to the design to prevent you being irresponsible is not the answer - acting responsibly is.

If, on the other hand, it is not a safety matter but rather one of operational preference and potential 'user error', then I can see your point. However, Toyota has built in a warning, including a bright light on the dashboard in front of the driver, and a series of beeps, to indicate the fact the user needs to be aware of a potentially poor operating practice. If that is not enough for a driver to realize there is a 'problem' then I suspect the driver is more of a safety risk than the fobless car.

Ultimately, it is entirely within the control of the vehicle's operator to decide how to operate the vehicle, and to safeguard against this happening the individual only has to exercise the same practice as with other vehicles - to take the 'key' with them in the first place. I couldn't have driven my previous car without doing so, so it seems to me a rather silly notion that the manufacturer of my new one should need to take precautions against me suddenly abandoning years of sensible practice. Alternatively, one can always simply choose to operate the vehicle only by inserting the fob into the provided slot in the dash if one is concerned about mis-operating it, or turn the SKS off altogether to prevent any chance of it happening. All within the vehicle operator's control.

The alternative is to nanny users with ever-increasing levels of visual and audible indicators to warn of every potentially non-standard, possibly inconvenient, operating condition. Where would they be able to stop once going down that route? Where would they put all the warning lights that would become necessary? How would they differentiate all the various tones necessary? How much would they have to spend to build them in, thus increase the cost of the vehicle? How would they ensure that driver's didn't rapidly become so desensitized to warnings that a clamor of an urgent safety issue or fault condition would go unheeded? How would they ensure that drivers did not find themselves confused and dangerously distracted by the plethora of interface components blinking, winking, buzzing, pinging, flashing.... at them? How long then before they get sued because they didn't incorporate something obscure that the absence of which then results in someone claiming a resultant injury?

The point is that as drivers of our vehicles, we are the people responsible for how they are used, and for our own behavior - and so we should be. Yes, people make mistakes, and yes, systems need to be engineered such that on occasion, people need to be protected from themselves, but they have largely done that with the existing warnings which are difficult to ignore in themselves. The one contention I'd agree with would be a message on the top line of the MFD to state something akin to 'No key fob in car' if the vehicle is left in ready mode and no fob is sensed inside. Written warnings are more likely to be effective in such situations than continuous audible tones, and could be engineered to provide a manual override if the action is intentional. But even so, it could be ignored and there will always be some who demand the car should go further to dissuade use. It must, however, be our responsibility to determine how the vehicle is used, not the vehicle's.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(paulccullen @ Jun 12 2007, 09:46 AM) [snapback]460210[/snapback]</div>

This assumes that the vehicle was in PARK to begin with. How many times have you just left the vehicle in DRIVE and had a foot on the break to let someone out of the vehicle?

Maybe a louder warning but other than that what is in the vehicle works fine already, one must pay attention to the gages and lights. If the driver does not see or realize the warning light then the driver is not in control of the vehicle. Just like someone that drives for 3 miles with the left blinker on. There is no excuse for this type of behavior!

 

I think what's been discussed here is a good debate of this issue. However, it's unfortunate that some folks chose to leave the discussion when they were unable to sway others to their way of thinking... It's really not necessary for us to all come to concensus on anything here -- it's just a way to discuss our ideas and hear what others think. Grown ups are usually capable of doing this without getting bent out of shape...

Personally, (and I am a female), I think the warning signal is completely adequate for the "offense" being committed. I frequently cause this particular alarm to go off, as I keep the FOB in my purse at all times. Sometimes my fiancee is driving and drops me off while he goes to park or even go to another store. (And, yes, in those cases he does not ever put the car in PARK!)

But every time, I hear those beeps and I realize that I have the FOB. So I take the 3 seconds to pull it out of my purse and give it to him to go park the car with or continue on to his destination with...

I don't view this as a safety issue, and I think for Toyota to waste any additional $ on making it more prominent is a waste. The only thing I would say they could have done without any real additional cost would be to put an actual sentence on the MFD of what happened. (i.e. "Unable to communicate with the SKS FOB." or something like that) But that's as far as I can see in "re-engineering" this alert.

Lastly, I will do my best not to get upset when all 400 of you who are reading this thread don't immediately and unequivocally agree 100% with every single thing I just typed.... ;-)

Happy beeping, flashing and remember to take your FOB with you!!! :-D

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zenMachine @ Jun 6 2007, 09:33 PM) [snapback]457079[/snapback]</div>

Right on! I'm with Zen - How is it that the seat belt beep, or even the reverse beep are continuous and tooth clenching annoying (at least until you KILL them...), while the no key beep is just three little beeps? This is one place where Toyota's otherwise inexplicable penchant for aggravating beeps would actually be a GOOD thing!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mad Hatter @ Jun 14 2007, 07:42 PM) [snapback]461970[/snapback]</div>

Because the seat belt beep and the back up beep are designed to keep Toyota from being sued. The key beep is not.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Keithnteri @ Jun 14 2007, 02:29 PM) [snapback]461759[/snapback]</div>

I think if the car is still in Drive and the passenger unbuckles the seatbelt to get out, it will give you the seatbelt beep. In this case, that could explain why one might not notice the fob-missing beep.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusRos @ Jun 14 2007, 08:55 PM) [snapback]462009[/snapback]</div>

But theres still the big yellow light in the shape of a key with an exclamation mark!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 14 2007, 09:06 PM) [snapback]462019[/snapback]</div>

Okay! I guess me and my boyfriend are both IDIOTS, okay??!! I didn't hear the beep and he didn't see the key icon.

Jeez!! I haven't been complaining that Toyota is remiss or stupid or threatening to sue -- all I'm saying is that the beep could be as insistent and persistent as the damn seatbelt unbuckled beep because I didn't NOTICE the three little beeps that then stop. It's a very simple engineering change that could save many people a lot of trouble. Why do you keep responding like we're nothing but a bunch of stupid whining crybabies for making that suggestion? You must be really pleased with yourself if you never make a stupid mistake like that!

 

I think the counter-intuitive thing here is that with a conventional key system, you cannot walk away with the key while the car is running because the only way to get it is to turn the car off first. So with most people, it's not something they're going to think of. Car running = key in the ignition. The Prius is probably going to be a driver's first experience with a car where that isn't true.

As for the beeps, I have heard them but I agree they may be easy to miss. With a new method of operation, Toyota needs to be forgiving to people who revert to habits from decades of driving. I'd rather the 10 second squawk (if you try to lock it with a door open, or accidentally press the lock button while opening the door) applied to it instead.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusRos @ Jun 14 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]462073[/snapback]</div>

Two things spring to mind:

1 - A constant, insistent beeping while the car is being driven and that could not be cancelled by a user-initiated action would not just be distracting, but in the event of an accident would almost certainly render Toyota at risk of a contributory law suit. The purpose of such warnings is to cause the driver to bring the vehicle to a halt as quickly as safely possible or to correct the problem (such as a seat belt not being used if either driver or passenger seat is occupied and the seat belt not connected). Since the operation of a vehicle without the key does not pose a safety risk - and it does not despite the assertions others have made since the vehicle operates perfectly well that way up and until it is powered down and a subsequent attempt is then made to power it up - creating an 'imminent safety' type warning would actually be counter productive.

2 - The 'nothing but a bunch of whining crybabies' responses are your characterization of replies that point out that drivers have to take responsibility for operating the vehicle, rather than place expectation on the car for doing so. They get repeated because the assertion that Toyota need to 'fix' this error keeps getting asserted, and while one the one hand it's been explained why Toyota should leave it as it is, on the other it's argued that it needs to be dealt with because rather than be an intentional act, those who find themselves in this position do so because they weren't thinking and didn't see the big warning icon or hear the short audible warning.

To me, the issue is a simple one really. However smart the best programmed system, it is far less smart than the most stupid person. Shifting reliance from the human to the machine to monitor and 'correct' human behavior is an incredibly dangerous proposition. Such a shift should only be countenanced when it relates directly to an immediate safety issue, not a behavioral one.

I think everyone but the most arrogant would understand that we do, all, make mistakes from time to time and that many of us have a tendency to be a bit forgetful with things we don't deal with all the time. The SKS system is a great idea, but it means that most of us never have to actually think about the 'key' because it's in our pocket/purse all the time and thus it becomes second nature to just walk up to the car, get in and drive. It's hardly surprising therefore that people do, from time to time, do exactly what is being described here. The solution however could not reasonably be to apply a warning and protection system which imposes on everyone for the benefit of a few (heaven only knows, we have enough of those in every area of modern life) but for each of us to find ways to condition our behavior to help protect ourselves from such erroneous behavior. It's not hard. Using the fob regularly to unlock or lock the car instead of the SKS function would help, for example, or buying a spare maybe from ebay, taking the battery out and keeping it secured and hidden in the car somewhere for use in just such circumstances for those who find themselves making the mistake too often.

One way or another though, it isn't safe in itself, or wise, to shift responsibility for operating 'safely' from the user to the car. The user may be an idiot, but the car is way below dumb.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusRos @ Jun 14 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]462073[/snapback]</div>

Because you're whining, overall there are a lot of whiners here and it drives me nuts. Nothing in life is perfect, and just because you have difficulty with something doesn't mean its designed poorly or theres an oversight. You keep insisting that the system needs to be louder and more insistant instead of just admitting "Yeah, I missed that light. Dumb ol me" laugh about it and move on. I bet you won't make the same mistake twice. Its a big light, its bigger than the check engine light actually. I'm not admonishing you for making the mistake, we ALL make mistakes. I'm admonishing you for not blaming YOURSELF for that mistake, because it was your fault. Not Toyotas, not the designer's fault, yours.

We live in a technological world, if you want to avail yourself of this technology you need to learn how to use it. Your issue could have been avoided by you and your boyfriend both carrying keys to the Prius on your person. Thats what we do, so its not possible that this could happen to us.

Read this line, a bunch of times

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Miss_Taz @ Jun 14 2007, 01:51 PM) [snapback]461771[/snapback]</div>

I was not going to re-enter this thread, but your comment does require me to clarify something I think is very important. I did not remove myself because I was "unable to sway others" to my way of thinking, or that I was "getting bent out of shape". I left because I never like to participate in conversations in which some people use derogatory or condescending terms or tones toward others. Words such as "idiots" and "stupid" do not add constructively to the discussion and only serve to spoil the friendly and civilized atmosphere which I want to preserve and promote in this group.

My mother has always taught me, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything." I'll try to stick to that.

Now, regarding some of the other points that have been raised since my departure, I would like to add one more thing to the discussion as a theoretical question to ponder:

For those who have disabled the seatbeltless MOVING CAR alert (continuous beeps for 30 seconds then STOP), would you also disable a similar audible alert if there was one for the fobless MOVING CAR? If so, why? If not, why not?

(The reason MOVING CAR is capitalized is because that is a crucial condition for the annoying seatbelt beeps. The reason STOP is capitalized is because some people seem to think that the beeps continue indefinitely; they don't.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZA_Andy @ Jun 15 2007, 08:11 AM) [snapback]462197[/snapback]</div>

First of all, I never asserted that Toyota needs to "fix the error." I am suggesting that a louder beep would make it less easy to miss. Secondly, when we did make the mistake, we were laughing about it, and he was thankful that he hadn't gone somewhere else and gotten stuck. However, since the OP brought up the issue, and a NUMBER of other people have had the same experience, I realize that we are not the only people who missed the warnings and agree that they could be made more obvious. Thirdly, what "big warning icon"?? It's a small orange icon. It's not extra bright and it doesn't flash. Most people are not constantly looking at the instrument panel. When you're driving off from a stop, you're looking up at the road ahead (or at your rear-view camera) -- I usually only look at the dash to check my speed or my gas gauge. If I happen to notice something come on, like the skid icon, which is accompanied be a change in the way the car feels too, yeah... I look then.

If you see and/or hear the warning but just ignore it, then yes, one is being stupid. If you don't notice either warning, that's not stupidity. There have been occasions where I did hear the beeps, and immediately corrected the situation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zenMachine @ Jun 16 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]462953[/snapback]</div>

You raise a good point and I'd be interested to see the responses. I find the seatbelt unbuckled beep only mildly annoying because it does remind everyone to fasten their seatbelts and the beeping stops when they do -- therefore I have never considered trying to disable it. I find the reverse beeper much more annoying and have considered disabling it. Any new passenger in the car is alarmed when they hear that. But, I haven't disabled it because I think that there is a possibility that one can forget one is in reverse (it's happened in other cars).