Downing Street memo

So IA, what would be acceptable "honest dissent" versus "disloyal subversion" consist of to you?

"May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion". Dwight E.

Thank you for reposting this comment. This comment is actually central to the point that I was making. You seem to suggest that you think that I missed it.

And you are certainly entitled to your opinion that the dissent that I and others express is "subversion", but I find that notion preposterous and insulting and anti American. And if anyone knew anything about why the American Revolution even occurred, they would clearly say your comments border on treason. I would recommend that you read the Declaration of Independence and the 1st Amendment. People died for those ideas.

And I will say it again, I think what Bush has done has made Americans extremely LESS safe, and extremely LESS secure. But you know what, if I didn't love my country, why would I care? I've got wealth and family and friends. In fact, if all I cared about was my wealth, I'd vote for Bush. You see, I'm in a tax bracket that benefits from Bush, plus my kids are grown and finished with college and are quite successful already.

But I don't vote for my own selfish self interest. I vote they way I do because I love this country.

But calling my criticisms of GW as some kind of "subversion" is right wing propaganda. And personally, I think it is an evil approach to dissent. You might notice that Clinton got a bit of grief from the right wing over Kosovo, but never did Clintons supporters accuse those dissenters of "subversion". Teddy, Thomas and Dwight must be spinning in their graves.

Oh, and your presentation of what transpired in North Korea is fabrication. What you call "nuclear blackmail" others call the give and take of negotiation. North Korea got something from us, and what we got was a halt to his nuclear program. And NK did not kick the UN inspectors out of NK until Bush reneged on that deal that Albright worked out. Had GW continued that "bad" deal as you put it, NK would still not have the bomb.



There is a fascinating article in last weeks Newsweek by Zacaria, where he points out that if you count all the oppressive regimes that were dealt with harshly with boycotts and penalties, by the US or others, those harsh regimes usually continued to survive. But if you count all those countries with harsh regimes that the USA negotiated with and came to a mutual agreement with, those harsh regimes either are now gone, or they are much less harsh towards their populations. Now this didn't happen 100% of the time, but it did happen most of the time.

And if you read Gorbachovs book, as well as others written by other Russian experts, you would realize that it was this very engagement that contributed to the defeat of the Soviet Union, MUCH more than any speach or military build up by Reagan. And that one of the main reasons that Fidel is still in power is because we chose "disengagement" with him. In Iraq, the 10 year embargo did nothing to topple Saddam, but it did destroy Iraqs middle class.

 

Evidence that GW's strategy in Iraq is backfiring is the recent resurgence in Afganistan by the Taliban rebels numbering about 20,000. Leaders in Afganistan told the administration when they were invading Iraq that the job was not finished in Afganistan. I remember many experts in Arab affairs pointing this out as well. Scatter your fire and miss the mark. No wonder Rumsfeld says we might be there another 12 years.

 

Yea well, I had to re-read a lot of it and the more I read the more I felt I had to say something. Have a happy day, PS your technical advise and knowledge is great, I enjoy this site from that point, and mostly will try to be a positive part of that.

 

IALTMANN, good job!!

 

Thank you EmilyJohn did my best (excuse the agressive Texas style) to up hold the positions, I have 2 sons over there, and invested a lot into this country. I respect the others, but can't stand the posts some of them made. But I do mellow out, we lived in NY and CA so I know it is a big country out there.

 

Prius4

"Clinton got a bit of grief from the right wing over Kosovo"

Exactly, a BIT., and note: Clinton told the American public we would be there for 1 YEAR, guess what, we are still there!!! 8,000 over there I go to Ft Hood and greet troops from there all the time. There is a T shirt floating around in the Army stating the American commitment there!

RIGHT AGAIN
"And NK did not kick the UN inspectors out of NK until Bush reneged on that deal that Albright worked out. Had GW continued that "bad" deal as you put it, NK would still not have the bomb"

>>NK would have the means to instantly develop the weaponry at anytime an American leader or Congress did something dis-agreeable to NK. Good spot and good deal for the US?? I still say and lots of people think this way SIR., this was not a good deal by MS Albright. Your own statements are proving this point, if GW had just been "nice" and some other President after him had done something not NICE., NK would be in a position to take the "WRAPS" off and make bombs......DUH seems rather basic to me.

 

IALTMANN, I sometimes wish that other parts of the U.S. use some of that "aggression, Texas style". You may not realize it, but I suspect there are many people around the country who look to the sovereign State of Texas as a positive example. So keep up that aggression and cherish it.

 

yEA!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"104083)</div>

You guessed correctly. I do and it is worth every penny.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"104222)</div>

Your response has nothing to do with my post. My post was that even though people criticize Clinton for Kosovo, people on the left do not accuse them of "subversion". You have questioned the patriotism of myself and others in this thread because we criticized Bush. But we "on the left", if that's what you want to call us, did not question the patriotism when right wingers criticized Clinton. The "correctness" of Kosovo is irrelevant. My post was about the accusation of our so called lack of patriotism.

(By the way, during the 2000 debates, GW stated that Kosovo was the wrong kind of war for the US to get involved in because it was only about freedom and democracy and there was no definite US interest. Thus, it makes me gag when I hear him now say that the reason we are in Iraq is for freedom and democracy. Then in that same debate GW gave as an example our entry into the Lebanon mess as the correct kind of war for America. I was appalled by that statement seeing as how how that incursion was a total fiasco. Reagan eventually cut and run out of there with his tail between his legs. But I was even more appalled the next day when the press let GW's statement about Lebanon slide with no follow up.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"104222)</div>

NK kicked the UN out of NK back in 2001, and developed the bomb sometime in 2004. I'd hardly call that "instant".

Plus, the Clinton/ Albright plan resulted in in NK NOT getting the bomb back in 1999. And had Bush kept with that plan, NK would still not have the bomb. But now they do, thanks to GW's lack of any plan of any kind.

And your suggestion that Clinton gave something to NK as part of the deal, that led to a speed up of NK getting the bomb is a right wing fabrication.

IA, I want you to know that I'm not responding to you in these posts. You lost my respect when you suggested that people who think like me lack patriotism, or that we lack know[ledge] of decency and honor.

But I don't want your fabrications about recent history to go unchallenged. Thus, my posts.

 

And as to our having 8000 troops in Kosovo. Bush has been president for 4 1/2 years. Thus, it is Bush that has those troops in Kosovo.

But this is irrelevant to the point that I was making.

 

IM -

You keep saying over and over again that you aren't getting 'factual' responses to your prose, just insults. However, I notice that most of the time when someone offers facts, or asks you specific questions about something you wrote; you simply ignore that posting. I made comments about one of your posts re. Panama and China about 3 pages ago. You ignored it. In the same post I asked a specific question about something you wrote. You ignored it. In fact, just a few posts after that, you claimed again that nobody is offering 'facts' - only insults. However, your posts are brimming with insults and divisive commentary that you don't seem to be able to recognize.

I went through the 6 pages of PriusChat that this thread is encompassing, cutting out portions of your posts which (to me) were insulting or (IMHO) downright hypocritical. The resulting Word document was over 2 pages long. Here, I'll include it for your viewing pleasure:

I've bolded the parts that I felt were particularly insulting or hypocritical.

So let me get this straight, none of that stuff up there was insulting? If it was said to you, you wouldn't find the hackles on your neck rising up a little bit to be called "disloyal", that you want "to hurt this country", that you want to "derail American efforts", that you lack decency and honor, that you are not patriotic, that your goal is to be "rewarded with the dark things you desire", that what you are saying is "HOGWASH", to be dismissed with the schoolyard invective of "DUH seems rather basic to me."???

No? Really!?!?! NONE of that you would find to be insulting if it was said to you? Wow, I'm really impressed!

Look, I'm grateful for your service in Nam. I'm grateful for your 2 sons service as well; and I hope that they return home soon, whole in body, mind, and soul. I understand that you are taking it personally when people claim that this war is hurting this country, as you might feel that statements such as these are diminishing the sacrifice of you and your family.

However, please try to realize that there are many people out there who really are doing what they feel is their patriotic duty to this country as well. Even though they feel that the direction that this administration is taking this country is wrong, that is what they are objecting to, not to this great country itself.

I believe that the collective experiences of this country have taught all of us (meaning the citizens of America) a number of lessons over the past decades. One of those lessons is how we should - and should not - treat our returning soldiers. I firmly feel that the tragedy that our Viet Nam vets experienced upon coming home from an unpopular war will not be repeated. I do not expect them to have to go through what you experienced, no matter what the outcome in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

So if you can tone down your rhetoric and frankly, yes, insults, and back up your claims with documentation (Google is your friend); I feel that you will get back a lot of the respect that you feel you are not getting here in Fred's House of Pancakes.

Hope you had a great 4th, and continue to enjoy one of the best cars on the Planet! :mrgreen:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Greyskye\";p=\"103978)</div>

He must have trouble differentiating between Costco and CNOOC Ltd., the China National Offshore Oil Corp.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius\";p=\"104304)</div>

He must have trouble differentiating between Costco and CNOOC Ltd., the China National Offshore Oil Corp.
[/b][/quote]

I think what is confusing me the most is his linking of Walmart and COTSCO/COSTCO/& possibly CNOOC or whatever-the-heck he meant. None of which stand for what he claimed it did up-thread.

IM - please take this in nicest way possible. This is the biggest problem with not spell/grammer checking your posts. Clarity. When you use sloppy writing, you post (inadvertantly) sloppy/confusing messages. I work daily with technical people for whom English is a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) language; and they take as much care as they can in their written communications in order to avoid misunderstandings. You would be able to better articulate your message if you took more care in crafting it. IMHO.

 

Greyskye: Thank you for your posts, but not as much for the points as for the style. (Although I do like your points.) All of us can learn from your example. I do hope IALTMANN appreciates your civility. I believe you show him the respect he deserves. That has been hard for me. I think Prius04 tries to show the man respect while disagreeing with him as well. You have been very direct while still displaying your respect for his dignity. I like that skill. I used to teach it but cannot demonstrate it with the same acumen I see in what you say.

 

I need to add my kudos as well Greyskye, you have elevated a thread that was, frankly, getting into the mudd.

IALTMANN, You need to realize this country is a diverse group of 300 million very diverse people with a common goal. Because of this you might say it is a work in progress, everyone in their own way are trying not to tear her down as you say to those who oppose the president but correct her direction when we feel she is off course, as you do when the political tables are turned.

I am including a couple links we should all read, the first, I hope, we are all very familiar with, but it is good for us all to refresh our memories of.

http://www.usconstitution.net/declar.html

The second is an excerpt from a speech given by Senator Barack Obama. OK my republican friends, he is a Democrat, but trust me, I would indeed read, and often do, the writings of a great many on the right.

http://www.madison.com/toolbox/index.php?a...%3Fntid%3D45690

Enjoy your reading...

Terry

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius\";p=\"104049)</div>

I beg to differ. That attitude typifies everything that is wrong with our educational system. I will never send my child to a school where teachers are not capable of speaking and writing English correctly, regardless of what subject they may teach. It sets a terrible role model for a teacher to be incapable of properly speaking the language of our country.
[/b][/quote]

That is not what is wrong with our educational system. Anyone who has gone to university has a story of the prof or TA who's grasp on English was tenuous but nonetheless had something to say. Mine is my electronic devices prof who spoke endless of "erectrons" and "whores".

The diversity of our culture and its reflection in the public school system is one of our strengths. I maintain hiding your kids in an elite private school with a faculty recruited from English boarding schools is what's wrong with this country. They may become excellent gulfstream liberals but won't be worth a damn in fixing the real problems of this country.

And I prefer the nursery story of the littlest train to stupid latin motos.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH\";p=\"104411)</div>

You are making a valid point. However, there is a vast difference between having professors and teaching assistants, whose command of the English language is tenuous, at the university level, where one should hope that the students have already mastered the language of the land, vs. having unqualified teachers at primary and secondary schools where language skills are still a work in progress and role models still play an important role.

Since Mr. Altmann brought it up, English is my second language.

That "elitist" school, by the way, has produced more than just "gulfstream liberals." Its graduates include a female astronaut, numerous scientists and professionals, powerful business executives, California governors, NBA stars, actors and actresses and musicians. Many of the students are sons and daughters of immigrants who appreciate the value of properly speaking and writing English. The school is as diverse as any I have seen. Everyone has one goal in mind, excellence in education.

 

Patriotism is a 2 way road, and in no way do I consider any views from the post(ers) above to be in anyway patriotic, when it comes to this WAR effort. The United States will never again win a war for ANY reason, with the likes of criticism this government endures from the likes of the posts I have seen. PS Panama Canal; we can argue all day, but bottom line is The CANAL zone is now operated under RED CHINESE control, and no longer by a neutral country. We did build that canal, and it is of strategic importance. Ask Israel about the SUEZ canal someday. Been in the Navy and I do know about it, have been part of scenario's in this very subject. Guess that is all Bush's fault too. That is why I just did not bother to even respond to yak yak nonsense. The above post(ers) in my opinion, talk like the ABC and CNN polls...what you accuse the right of doing is exactly what you all do, and you complain because you no longer have the "monopoly" to do it with. Texans (and no I am not a native Texan, but still proud of this state) at least have some patriotic venues. As for the Private Schools., good I am in favor of using private vouchers, if Public Schools don't measure up, I am evaluated every year and my elective and language courses win awards time and again every year. We always strive to improve, in TECHINICAL and PROFESSIONAL areas, and we do in TEXAS keep politics separate from the real world of jobs, work, professionalism in a field and the likes. Now you all will take this as an insult too, but you all assail every area I stand for and expect civility, respect, I guess acknowledgement your issue is valued and valid in every respect. Well guess what, even in the Middle East, your views would still be insufficient to satisfy these kinds. I live in the real world down here, and in and out of military matters, and know a little about the real world out there and the middle east too. I cannot imagine a future for this country, with the tirades I have seen on this board, I did know this would happen, but been in TEXAS too long to take it laying down. So just keep on, there's a couple here who are on my side, and Prius4 I don't give a RAT"S A__ if you're talking to me or not. I respect and appreciate your technical contributions and the hard work you did on PriusChat.com, but in FRED's House of Pancakes...I'll be using the Spatula on you as long as you use the Spatula on me, and that is the long and short of it BRO.

 

And PS>>>just to avoid being insulted...since you all think I can't write, spell and do grammar...I believe I stated that I prefer on BOARDS to use conversational manners, and I don't waste TIME in proofing or spell checking or just even spelling things right 100% of the time. I believe I could pass an SAT test in English, since even when I did take it in 1968, with knowing English only for 6 years, I got a 610. If you all want me to start checking your postings for spelling and grammar be glad to.