Downing Street memo

Gotta have an enemy, right? An enemy will define our mission. Our victory will enthrone us as dominant. Never in a hundred hundred years would we agree to address the problem instead of the problem identifier.
Aristotle is quoted to have taught that there are 3 kinds of conflict: 1. Man against Man, 2. Man against Nature and 3. Man against (the) God(s). You ain't likely t prevail in a #2 or #3 kinda fight. Lets go for #1. Yeah #1. Kick nice person! Harness the ignorant to serve the powerful! Give 'em what they want! Yeah!

 

I think I read this on a soap bottle someplace:

"Media whores: Suckups to advertising revenue. Program quality content far secondary to Fortune 500 ad income: Fortune 500 infiltrated by neocon patsies and plain greedy schemers. Only recourse for just person: wait, watch, act without warning to reconcile system."

Whaddya think?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"102910)</div>

Some people sure don't recognize sarcasm when it smacks him in the face.

Minority opinion? Have you read/checked the latest polls? Even statistically off -/+5%, opinion that Bush going to Iraq is a bad idea is in the 'minority' of ~60%, and satisfaction with his current performance is still dropping.

And STILL only Weapons of Mass Disappearance found everywhere. Ever heard of a police-state, or an authoritarian plutocracy btw?

Additionally to defeat Saddam, Bush becomes Saddam and the USA Iraq? pshaw.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fredatgolf\";p=\"102912)</div>

Thanks Fred for the invitation and I appreciate your trust. (I first had to make sure you weren't using the ]you[ trick. But you need to choose your battles and when I saw the title of this thread I shied away until now.

As for IALTMANN, his mind is already made up. He has 40 years of anger over Vietnam, and he has two sons over there now "making us safer". So he has way too much of his very soul invested in GW to even consider that others can have a reasonable point of view.

Also, his arguments seem to be taken verbatim from the RNC and Rush and O"Reilly. Billions have been spent on sharpening up their talking points. Plus, they are masters at using emotion over intellect. And you cannot argue emotion.

Also, I found IALTMANN's use of what seems to be a common technique nowadays to attack the patriotism of those that present another view a bit nauseating. I'm sure he loves his country, as do we all.

That said, I think the evidence is overwhelming that GW Bush has made the USA extremely less safe. (Some of that conclusion BTW came out in a recent CIA report. Something that got minimal play in our media -- just like the Downing Street Memo.) He has also made the US economy extremely less robust, and what little success we do see, is based upon borrowing from the future, and if you look who owns our debt, by selling that debt to China. Some of it is also due to people using up their equity -- a very dangerous tactic.

But you won't get this side of the story from Faux News or the Washington Times or from all the right wing web sites out there. There is still a ton of money being spent to keep the Republicans in power. And making Bush look good is central to that plan. If the Republicans can pull off an increase in seats in 2006, they may just succeed in repealing the entire 20th century, something that will turn all of us into simply being the hired help. They have GOT to be salivating over that.

So I have no interest in taking IALTMANN on.

But I will say this and I've said it before. I love this country but I think this country has made some bad mistakes in the last 25 years. And it has been about 25 years since the pendulum has been swinging away from liberal politics, and towards conservative and now with the neocons, fringe right wing politics.

The first pendulum swing, towards the liberals or "progressives" if you will, started slowly around 1900, and accelerated with FDR, and peaked around 1975 to 1980.

Since 1980, the pendulum has been swinging back to the way it was in the 19th century, and is accelerating in that direction under GW.

And it is not a coincidence that the biggest explosion in cultural, economic, health and wealth in the history of the human race occurred in the USA from about 1900 till about 1980. And at least for the working and middle classes, that progress has been relatively flat since then. And in the last 5 years, that progress has reversed.

And other countries that have in the past -- or are starting to now -- to embrace that "progressiveness", have seen similar explosions.


_____________________________
Empower the rich, and get 19th century growth rates. --> Vote Republican.
Empower the masses, and get 20th century growth rates. --> Vote for anything but Republican.

 

Prius04: I have an evil streak that made me want you there just for fun. Thanks for indulging in an otherwise thankless task.

 

Well..now we go to election fraud...that in itself is a fraud..my son and I have both been through elections while in the military, and let me tell you it is more difficult to express your rights as a soldier as it is to vote like say you are on parole... GW won it the first time because the Supreme Court decided the State of Florida, had to its best counted the vote. In that state the Military ballots were grossly scrutinized, and thousands discarded due to minor flaws, yet the undercount was taken to mean that only the Blacks who could not read a DEMOCRAT precint run ballot were discriminated against..and the chads..let me see.. I do recall the company that made the machines selecting its worst machines from the State of Florida, stuffing the ballot chad boxes full, and offering $1,000,000 to anyone who could get a chad to hang with ONE (1) that is (1) ballot ONLY in the machine... they (the ballot machine maker) did admit that when the voting machines had 4-5 ballots in the slots, chads could be made to hang. The media just did not report that one..it was not newsworthy...ps nobody won that million.

Let me ask something here..What would a voter be doing with MORE then one (1) that is (1) ballot in the voting box??? I think the problem was way overstated in an attempt to get this close election to GORE.. You sir need to just get over that, and even this time GW got the election fair and square, so the voters have spoken.

Don't make me go back to JFK and how Dailey stuffed the boxes in Chicago, the dead people voting, and how JFK had the mafia and the unions helping, there it is clearly documented that JFK stole the election from Tricky Dick ..even if it was Nixon never did like him, that is a factual example of a stolen election. :guns: :guns:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IALTMANN\";p=\"103026)</div>

Wow, not just a ditto head, but a bigoted one to boot.

:crazyeyes:

 

I can't see the move on.org and accepting arab terrorism as progress in the 21st century. Agree that 20th century was democrat's time..21st century is what the republicans are looking at, and not by going backwards. It is the democrats lack of solutions, factual ideas, meaninful solutions and reasonable solutions that is doing them in. Heck if the democrats could figure out how to BETTER getting us out of that "quamire" as you all like to put it, why don't you all come up with some ideas..?? Problem is your ideas are worst then ours and not main stream... and polls don't tell the whole story. and BTW I read the Wall Street Journal and USA Today in addition the rest of the media.. WHERE IS YOUR BEEF as they say at Wendy's...problem with your "free speech" is it is always attacks, insults and used by the Arab world and its press to denegrate this country, put our soldiers in harm's way...I know you hate not running things..Carter did it and did not do such a good job..it seems now the new Iranian President may have been one of the students who took our embassy back then...Are you blaming Bush for that one too ???

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius\";p=\"103029)</div>

Wow, not just a ditto head, but a bigoted one to boot.

:crazyeyes:
[/b][/quote]

Oh yes anytime you say stuff like that you're the biggot....got news for you, some of my family is black, got more news for you..many blacks feel the way I do about all this..GW and the repubs may not have a great history with blacks, but we do see who thinks they own them. I suppose you also hate that stamp from Mexico. When we stop accusing anything not within our views as racist, bigotted, ditto head etc..then maybe we all will move ahead on that count..ASK Bill Cosby where the Black's real problems are in this country, and HE ain't no republican either.

 

IsrAmeriPrius: I have been wondering for months, What does "Possunt quia posse videntur" mean?

IALTMANN: Keep goin' baby, you are really entertaining.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fredatgolf\";p=\"103061)</div>

Ditto.

 

I like the word I recently saw someplace to describe a certain mindset: "Belignorant". For me it describes a loud, unoriginal, too-proud-to-ponder sort of "me first, you suck" take on social interaction. The word will likely soon be hijacked by the conservative element to describe some progressive person or idea. It happened with the term "mean-spirited". One media technique used in neoconspeak its to find out what "the opposition" is saying about you, and try to pin it back on them before the largest possible audience. Especially attractive is an audience that will glom on to a figure of speech and parrot the thing until it's another battle cry. (Talk radio audiences, closed-culture audiences like military groups, and paid publicists like Fox)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Watts D. Hour\";p=\"103095)</div>

Boy, you are brave!

 

I'm still shocked that a Texas military man who feels there is plenty of oil (as he stated on another thread), would A) buy a Prius, and B) peruse a Prius site and get angry/emotional of the views of the vast majority of posters here. What did you expect to fing here, the NRA and fundamentalist preachers? Typically trolls try to make the forum posters angry/emotional while privately laughing at them, not vice versa.

I and others bought a Prius because we feel the US needs to reduce our oil comsumption so that we DON"T have to fight in the middle east and buy our oil from the very people that hate us and wish us harm.

 

IALTMANN, Thanks for your service and the service of your family. I choked ukeright: when I saw the quote that Anyone owning a Prius would be anti-Bush (paraphrased). My son is a marine and proud to serve and I am proud of him. I am a loyal republican and conservative and I back President Bush in hiw effort. I do NOT agree with everything he does but I agree with his GOALS.

I am in Law Enforcement. Evil exists. Evil cannot be compromised with. Evil must be destroyed. Evil actions must be stopped. Evil people must be killed before they kill you. I am taking it to an extreme to make a point. You cannot discuss things with people who behead others. They are too far gone. You discuss things with people who are willing to listen and respect your views. Like members of this forum. You discuss things with governments that, in overall practice, follow civilized rules, not ones committing genocide. I will negotiate with a criminal who is talking to me, I will "neutralize the threat" at the moment my safety is endangered.

98% of the people do not "get" evil and are docile sheep. They do not hurt each other except by accident. 2% are the "sheepdogs" looking out for the sheep. Their are wolves in the world who prey on the sheep. The woolf rarely comes, but when it does, all the critics will be screaming for the sheepdogs. And we will come. Sheepdogs are most military and most law enforcement.

If you don't believe this, then the next time a criminal victimizes you, don't call us. The next time a "criminal" victimizes the country, don't call the military.

All of you who criticize our "imperfect" country, show me a better one or DO something to improve it (not just talk-talk-talk).

Karl

 

Where did I say that Prius owners are anti Bush? Never!


Granted there's a large number of so called "tree huggers" (I am not) to which the Prius is appealing to. But there are also a lot of conservatives who like the Prius, including several Republican congressman and noted Pentagon Hawks. They have stated that they drive a Prius becasue they feel a need to reduce our dependance on middle eastern oil for national security reasons. This view is not unique to the left, right, or the pissed off independants (which I am), it is common to many people. Which is why I am shocked to hear someone of Ian's frame of mind driving a Prius or spending time on a site like this. If you think there is plenty of oil in the world, and that US car makers are getting a bad rap, than why did you buy a Toyota? And why are you here fruitlessly trying to change the minds of people (left and right) that there's plenty of oil, and that by bad mouthing GM, we are the fault of some deep darkness to come over the US.

My point is that you should not get angry/emotional when people at this board more often than not, disagree with Rush Limbaugh type reasoning.
debating and emotional stonewalling do not mix well.

BTW, No country is perfect. And driving a Prius IS one way to make things better. So is healthy, rational debate on important issues. Pointing fingers at the other side does not help IE: Liberals are going to ruin the country OR Bush is ruining the country. Neither of these are true and both are counterproductive.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fredatgolf\";p=\"102912)</div>

Fred, by his lack of response (up to a point) I suspect Prius 04 has morphed into the same thinking I have when dealing with some posings. That is, in my case, I now read the poster's name first, then, if they haven't been too absurd in previous posts I read them. If they are, indeed, nothing more than "Dittoheads" spouting Ditto nonsense I don't waste my time and just move on. This is not to say I don't read and enjoy and learn form posters who have a different view than I do. Indeed, I relish opposing points of view posts as fodder for me to learn from. However, If I even SUSPECT they are just regurgitating nonsense I give them their space and easily move on to the next post. It has become aparent over the past 10 years that strident and bellicose behavior and cheating has become the norm in some political circles, has been elevated to an artform by those who have been in the 'game' the longest and even the sarcastic imitators of their methods can't penetrate the skulls of the most strident. It is a shame this slippery slope of behavior has accellerated from civil discourse to hate mongering, but that's where we find ourselves today. And it is great fun to sit back and watch such persons self-destruct their own character and that of their party.

 

Darwood,

Your first quote- I'm still shocked that a Texas military man who feels there is plenty of oil (as he stated on another thread), would A) buy a Prius, and B) peruse a Prius site and get angry/emotional of the views of the vast majority of posters here. What did you expect to fing here, the NRA and fundamentalist preachers? Typically trolls try to make the forum posters angry/emotional while privately laughing at them, not vice versa.

I and others bought a Prius because we feel the US needs to reduce our oil comsumption so that we DON"T have to fight in the middle east and buy our oil from the very people that hate us and wish us harm.

Your second- Which is why I am shocked to hear someone of Ian's frame of mind driving a Prius or spending time on a site like this. If you think there is plenty of oil in the world, and that US car makers are getting a bad rap, than why did you buy a Toyota? And why are you here fruitlessly trying to change the minds of people (left and right) that there's plenty of oil, and that by bad mouthing GM, we are the fault of some deep darkness to come over the US.


You are speaking for others and, I apologize, I took it as IMPLIED you were anti- Bush and you think ALL Prius ownners should be anti-Bush. You know, we are ALL more alike than different. I told my brother once, we all want the same thing, we just think there are different ways to get there (he is very liberal to my conservativeness)

However, along another vein, when IALTMANN started the old "how can you call me a bigot, I have blacks in my family" stuff, I now smell something fishy. If I am a bigot, and my daughter marries a black man, how do I suddenly become not a bigot? With a blatantly false line of reasoning like that, I now am suspicious of all his arguments.

IALTMANN, if you are for real, careful of those kinds of traps. In the art of interrogation, those are called tip-offs.

Karl

 

Bye now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn\";p=\"103124)</div>

Fred, by his lack of response (up to a point) I suspect Prius 04 has morphed into the same thinking I have when dealing with some posings. but that's where we find ourselves today... And it is great fun to sit back and watch such persons self-destruct their own character and that of their party.[/b][/quote]

Prius04 gave a good long response before bowing out, which I was ready to do also. What I was criticizing was the method. I could not believe that IALTMANN could not see how inflammatory his remarks were. I, like you and other posters who have reflected on this, here, would like to see real discussion. But how likely are we to see that if there are those who cannot even tell when they are attacking others?