Down to the Rapture

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 25 2007, 02:36 AM) [snapback]411773[/snapback]</div>

Bull.

Utter Bull. In the Catholic religion, for one, you can go on knowing God even after you sin. Now, they require you going to confession to atone for sins, but you don't stop knowing God during that time.

And their are plenty of people, who know God, without being fully repentant. Take the ones that get saved, and then die within hours of that, sometimes sooner. They never had an opportunity, in many cases, to repent. Yet, they know God.

JEWS, who don't accept Christ, they know God. I could go on, but this was just another in your endless errors that must be pointed out.

ALAN.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 25 2007, 02:36 AM) [snapback]411773[/snapback]</div>

Watch an exorcism? You do this a lot, ALAN? Here's some news for you: Exorcisms are not real. At least not the modern execution. When Christ ordered a demon to flee, they did, right away.

Rarely, when I have been an unfortunate witness to these so called exorcisms, the person being exorcised flops around and acts all posse ed, (usually a plant by less then honorable preachers), and it takes many attempts to break the spirit. But this is where they are fakes.

Christ said, that what you cured, as long as it was in His name, was cured. Note, you did not have to cure it twice in His name; just once.

So all of these modern exorcists, are obviously fake; for if they truly did it in His name, the cursed would be cured.


Of course, some find it all suspect; I can not deny it, since I have all too often seen this faked.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 24 2007, 06:20 PM) [snapback]411641[/snapback]</div>

Oh, but you are wrong here. After the forgiveness of being born again...there is no more REMISSION of sin. I don't know the passage off-hand. So, Christians who sin will be chastised by God either in this life, the afterlife, or both. How did you miss that? No, forgiveness is not a license to sin. If you are forgiven, and continue to knowingly sin, you will either be punished (I don't know how...but you will) or you were not saved to begin with.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 25 2007, 03:00 AM) [snapback]411806[/snapback]</div>

We are not speaking of the Catholic religion. But, my position is not that God does not know you...but God cannot blesss you or answer prayers if you continue in sin. He can and WILL also chastise you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 25 2007, 02:34 AM) [snapback]411812[/snapback]</div>

And don't most Christians believe they're fakes? Along with speaking in tongues? Right up there with snake-handling.

I was thinking about relationships this morning, and how once respect is lost in a relationship, it's tough to keep the relationship afloat. I think that sums up my relationship with Christianity. I was raised in the Appalachian Mountains (or Hills, if you're from Colorado!). There are TONS of "pentecostals," or "holy-rollers" as we called 'em there, tucked up in little hollers away from mainstream. Some of my high school compadres were members; the girls were not allowed to wear make-up, or pants, or jewelry. Hair was never put up, but left long; and all of them dropped out of school at the age that it could be done then (15, I think). Of course, they were following the quotes from the bible about the need for women to be unadorned.

Then I went to Governor's School, and met some wonderful folks--Jewish, Hindu, and even a Shinto. And when I returned to my Methodist church, I was told how they were going to "hell." Even though they were good people. Huh?

And then I heard the vitriole about gays, based on the Sodom/Gomorrah tale, and the quotes about spilling seed. In high school, there was one guy who everyone knew was gay--of course, he wouldn't come out--but he was a great friend, and considered himself a Christian. I always wondered how he felt about that--his own belief system turning its back on him.

So I lost my respect for Christianity, based on these churches interpretations of the Bible on many more issues than just the three listed here. The one part of Christianity I didn't lose respect for was Christ himself--what he said, what he did, how he acted. I don't think he was the Son of God any more than EACH of us are, so that takes me out of the faith entirely.

Now that I have become slightly more educated than the BFE hick I was, I can recognize these quotes of damnation as what they are: signs of the times that the book was written in:
--Girls shouldn't be adorned? Safety issue. The Koran has this, too. Didn't want them being attacked by (apparently) animalistic men who couldn't restrain themselves. (and, btw, I wonder how folks like windstrings and loveit explain away this one...)
--"Spilling seed?" Not a good thing when the infant mortality rate was very high and prenatal care nonexistent, and people with larger families were able to become stronger as the clan grew.
--The way to God is through me? Or eternal salvation? Or whatever quote you want to find? How 'bout that if people do good, and follow the things that Christ said or did, then they too will find eternal salvation, regardless of faith.

So when I hear folks like windstrings talk about exorcism, I'm reminded of the respect I lost for the church. And how, unless LOTS of changes are made in Christianity, that respect will not come back. And when respect is lost in a relationship, the relationship is doomed. TJ is one of the few Christians I've met (and my Mom is another one, though that perspective has come to her later in life) who has the kind of outlook that could bring about these changes. Perhaps there are more out there that are similar.

My Dad, on the other hand, has gone more down the fundie path, sharing his non-denominational church with lots of Mennonites. He left the Methodist church because it became far too liberal for him.

I look at this and wonder why I wrote it...not sure. Perhaps hoping that the two holy-rollers will see that someone like me doesn't take their faith (or lack thereof) any less seriously than they do. Spiritual growth is a part of my daily life.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 25 2007, 08:28 AM) [snapback]411845[/snapback]</div>

You're right. They were speaking of being a Christian. But there are many Christian religions with their own approaches to sin. That's why TJ brought up Catholicism. It's one of the (if not the) original Christian religions.

The point of confession (now commonly called reconciliation) is to continually ask for forgiveness and receive penance for whatever sins you have committed since your last confession. Being that we are all human and will make mistakes (or sin, if you prefer), it's a way to be accountable and be chastised for it in the here & now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 24 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]411773[/snapback]</div>

was the exorcism performed on you?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Mar 23 2007, 08:09 PM) [snapback]411216[/snapback]</div>

Once you argue about made up, fantastical things there is no end to the discussion. There can be no agreement and the number of arguments is practically infinite.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 25 2007, 06:28 AM) [snapback]411845[/snapback]</div>

Interesting concept: punishment in heaven. Is there any support for this concept in the bible? Any bible? I ran "punish*" through the Crosswalk concordance site and got many hits (revealing that the "god" of the western bibles is, to be rigorously honest, a vile, sadistic, petty, childish, jackass of a monster), but I couldn't find ANY that specified heaven as a place where any sort of punishment would occur. I admit, I didn't scan EVERY verse the search turned up (hundreds across about 20 versions of the western bible). Nonetheless, I challenge anyone to find a verse that specifies ANY kind of punishment being applied to a soul which has attained residence in heaven.

By the way, the catholic system of formalized "confession" strikes me as one of man's sleaziest copouts from moral responsibility ever concocted. Knock over three banks and a liquor store, kill two clerks in the process, and top it off by having a pork hot dog last Sunday (with sauerkraut!), and then blandly give a blow by blow narration to some hack in a booth so he can tell you "You are forgiven my child, say nine hail marys for each thousand dollars of the take, tithe ten percent to the church, and lay off the hot dogs, they'll clog your arteries."

Perhaps an old Sopranos episode captures it better: Paulie Walnuts attends a medium's session (can't remember why but the reason isn't important) and while there, the medium channels the ghost of Paulie's first murder, scaring the hell out of Paulie (not of the ghost, but of the fact that the medium apparently knows about the murder). Paulie later confronts his priest about the incident, incensed: "What was that all about, huh? All the money I give to your church is supposed to prevent that kind of s**t!"

Indeed!! :lol:

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

I saw an episode of Star Gate last night.. this weird dude on there was talking just like the wing-nuts in this thread. The Star Gate guys kept telling this weird guy that the "Orai"(or something like that) are a fraud and the weird dude kept spouting out about the "blind unbelievers" and how the "Orai" will strike them down.. I wish I could find the transcript for it. It uncannily resembles some people around here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 25 2007, 01:00 AM) [snapback]411806[/snapback]</div>

I'm sorry you don't have a clue as to what I'm taking about.

the Jews "as a nation" don't know God either. Niether did they know him when he walked among them.. nothing has changed since then.. other than that thier even more blinded now....

but they "will" know him in the future.... when the times of the Gentiles is over.

And.. no.. your wrong again...... if you are not "fully" repentant.... you will not have fellowship with him....

Not being fully repentant allows sin to dwell within..... sin that is not given to the lord, is sin that is not covered.
The Lord says Obedience is better than sacrific... you can't do what you want and live the way you want and then do a good work to undo it... its only undone by repentance and the free gift of grace from God that you cannot take the credit for.

TJ, if you want me to talk to you and give you credit for being intelligent, you need to pay attention and be a good student and quit trying to teach the teacher and be a little more respectful.
I try to give you grace for being so young, but your arrogance is something that is not tolerated in any classroom.... especially one taught of the Lord.

Like I said in an earlier post.. if you don't want to learn anything from me.. just say the word and I will not address you again.

In fact.. I'll make it easy for you..... Unless you "Do say" you want to learn.. I will not address you anymore....

Its obvious you have gotten some very bad doctrines of devils and are very confused.

This next scripture I will share speaks of the the bad doctrine that teaches not to ever marry.... I think you can tell me what religion this is in these modern times can't you?

(1 Tim 4:1 NKJV) Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
(1 Tim 4:2 NKJV) speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
(1 Tim 4:3 NKJV) forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
(1 Tim 4:4 NKJV) For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
(1 Tim 4:5 NKJV) for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

I will not "argue with you" anymore, nor take your little insults anymore.......
You hate anything to do with God.. all you want is the fake one you made up that loves your sin that you won't repent of.
You do not want the truth, you only take the parts you can twist into what you can live with and throw the rest of Gods word out.

BTW..... its a bigger sin to keep it an twist it and pervert it than it is just to reject it.... at least the one who rejects it is honest.

I think you've made it clear your a heretic and only want to defame God and his word and pervert the love of God into a "greasy grace" that allows sin to have free reign so the Devil can be the real master of all of your converts........


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 25 2007, 01:34 AM) [snapback]411812[/snapback]</div>

TJ, don't use what the catholics do as your measuring stick for an exorcism......
Yes, its very drawn out and the devil may kick your butt if you are not filled with the Holy Spirit....

A true exorcism is just like the ones you read about in the bible.... they take only minutes.

(Acts 19:13 NKJV) Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches."
(Acts 19:14 NKJV) Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
(Acts 19:15 NKJV) And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"
(Acts 19:16 NKJV) Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 25 2007, 07:50 AM) [snapback]411852[/snapback]</div>

Christians are the ones the do believe in it... Jesus spoke of it and promised it would come and he commanded they tarry or wait till it comes and when it came it fell on 120 of them in the upper room.

The only ones that don't believe in it are the ones that "profess godliness" but deny the power of it.... the Holy Spirit is the power to walk as a christian.. all else is just fake form and ritual like the pharasees had.

Livelychick, don't be decieved by some who speak out here... they are very very decieved..

(2 Tim 3:2 NKJV) For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(2 Tim 3:3 NKJV) unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
(2 Tim 3:4 NKJV) traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
(2 Tim 3:5 NKJV) having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Are you going to choose to believe mens opinions or Gods word?......

(Mat 7:13 NKJV) "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
(Mat 7:14 NKJV) "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
(Mat 7:15 NKJV) "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
(Mat 7:16 NKJV) "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

 

Oh boy! Another reply from Mr. Know It All! Yeah! Let's count the ways he is wrong this time!

First up:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]412195[/snapback]</div>

Wrong, bucko. As it is, I talked to someone, it turns out, who knows you in the real world, ALAN! Neat, huh? So I know you better now, then I did before! Keen! Oh, and he wants to remain anonymous, as he does not want you to come after him...like, apparently, you have done in the real world, when others disagree with you.


Second thing you are dead wrong on:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]412195[/snapback]</div>

The JEWS, the practicing JEWS, do, in fact, know God. The HEBREW GOD, ya smuck! And, I don't know about you, but I ain't no Gentile. I am, an Irish Hot Head. Yeah, yeah, I know what you are going to say about Gentiles and all that, but since I don't live in the stone age like you do, I don't consider myself a Gentile.


Third thing tonight:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]412195[/snapback]</div>

Wrong so very wrong this time, ALAN. If you are 'saved' and get hit by the bus the very next minute, you get to go to heaven, where indeed, you will know Christ, God.

The one who was on the cross to the side of Christ, he asked to come along, and lo, he was! Christ told him so! I'm sure that guy did not have time to fully repent, what with his being busy dying at the time.


Fourth in a continuing line of wrong answers, mistruths, and out right lies:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]412195[/snapback]</div>

So, you are the Lord now? Huh. Funny, you don't look Jewish. Anyway. I'm 42, and if that is young, then wow, thanks. And frankly, ALAN, I would NEVER EVER want to be a student of yours. Unless it was clown school, and I wanted to look like a clown.

My 'arrogance' as you put it, is really just me fed up with your crap, ALAN.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 26 2007, 01:51 AM) [snapback]412201[/snapback]</div>

Your quite desperate TJ!

So I guess you've now proved to him too that you twist the truth in most anything you want as well as Gods word?
Since I know your lying about me going after anyone.. lets hear all the dirty details.. I invite you to prove me wrong......

If your going to bring up a name... don't stretch for someone that wants to remain anonomous then give him words he never said...

Now you are not only lying about me, but your putting words into someone elses mouth that spoke with you too... what do you he now thinks about you?
You are a desperate man TJ.

 

Fifth up:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]412195[/snapback]</div>

It's obvious you are very confused. Are you inferring that somehow, I am not married? That I should not have been married? What?

 

Clannggg! Swiiish!!! Slice!! Bahhrrraaannnnnnnggg!!!

You two are in a full blown swordfight! Drop the long knives, guys, before some wise guy figures out how to sell tickets!

MB

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 05:02 AM) [snapback]412202[/snapback]</div>

Actually, no...not at all. But no matter; this man, who has known you for at least five years, give or take by his account, I ran into him on vacation. He was at a church that I was working at Sunday. I had no idea who he was, but he and I struck up a conversation, and I told him about this guy who was online, on a Prius site, and he said he knew of a guy in his church who owned a Prius...I then showed him on the churches computer the thread that we are all here on...and he said that it sure sounded like you, since he could not be sure and all. You don't have your picture, and let's be honest, ALAN, that name could be yours, or it could be fake.

Oh, my brother lives in Texas, Dallas area, and boy...when I go visit him, I'm sure I'll take a detour now, and visit you in person, since this nice gentleman told me where you go to church...

Now, where was I? Oh yeah.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]412195[/snapback]</div>

Do you listen to yourself, ALAN? Or do the voices in your head drown out any thought? Sorry, that was low.

But then again, I tried to be nice to you ALAN, I did. Really. But you have not apologized about dragging my wife into this, and you continue to insult me with your snide comments, and inferring that I don't know God, because, gosh, I happen to think differently then you do.

I'll ask Mark. Mark, do I hate anything about God? Be fair.

I'm guessing, based on my posts here, that I have NEVER said that I hate God. I have made it clear, that I am not pleased with what man has done in God's name, like corrupt His word.

Speaking of not showing respect, ALAN, why can't you do the same? I must admit, I am coming down to your level here...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]412195[/snapback]</div>

THERE IT IS!!!!!! I was waiting for it, I knew it was coming. I'm a HERETIC! I knew you would finally get to it.

See, ALAN, that is the problem with you, and not loveit. At least not so far. I have, I'll admit, a fairly radical view on Christ. I think of Him as a Peaceful Loving God, that is not hung up on man's rules. And man, well, man made a lot of the rules that you take for granted, in the Bible. You are not, nor will you EVER change on that.

And that is fine. I won't call you a heretic, even though you call me that.

I will say this, however: You are a slander, and have been, for some time in this thread. You have mocked everyone who does not believe as you do, ALAN, from the atheists, to the Buddhists, to the Jewish, to other Christians, like myself, who don't believe as you. You have belittled people, you have tried to discredit their intelligence, and you have insulted more then you seem to grasp. I have shown your ravings, er, posts, to others, a lot of pastors, and they concur. You are doing Christ a disservice by your continuous barrage here.

Every time I think I may be done here, you step in, and rile me up again. I got to tell you, your friend, he said you are quite the same in person. You often will yell others down, in your church, if they don't agree with you.

That is why he wants to remain anonymous. No need to have you on his butt when he gets home. He did say, that if you don't watch it, someone will key your car one day. His words, not mine. Seems you make enemies in the real world as well as here. Although, ALAN, most here, including myself, would never key your car.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]412195[/snapback]</div>

It's CHRISTIAN, with a capital 'C', not lower case 'c'. Get that right at least, ALAN.

Oh, and I'm sure that livelychick (and others) can form their own opinions as to what is the truth here, and not.
God's word is as strong as ever. However, the Bible, which man wrote, that has weak parts.
Parts that man put in there.

ALAN, if this seems so rude to you, then fine, I'm sorry. Really. But you insult me, and frankly, my check is bruised from turning it.

Mark, I apologize to you. I should not have brought you into this.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 26 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]412195[/snapback]</div>

Really, ALAN? Really? Then good. Don't. Leave me alone, alright? It's quite clear, that you will hate me, as long as I am the way I am.

Oh, but here is the kicker: If I was, as you say I am, a heretic, then it would behove you to try to convince me of the errors of my ways, right?
What do you do then? Find another Bible verse to get you out of that?
I know the Bible better then a lot of people. I relaly do. I know it so well, since I read it everyday, for hours at a time.

And, oh, this is great too: According to the Word, you have to forgive me 70 times 7.

Christ said so.
Title: The Holy Bible, King James Version
Edition: Third
Publisher: Public Domain
Publisher Location: Omaha, Nebraska

Matthew 18:21 –Matthew 18:22 (KJV)
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


Now, I will do that for you. I will, again, forgive you for being so mean to me, and I will forgive you, again, for not apologizing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 26 2007, 01:22 AM) [snapback]412205[/snapback]</div>

No.
But it's plain that the "god" each of you envisions ain't the same fellow, not by lightyears, so the mismatch in your conceptions could very easily be interpreted (if one regards disagreement not as disagreement but as deliberate affront) as "hate" for the other's conception of his "god."

That is, after all, perhaps THE principal difficulty with religion: each sect has its conception of what "god" is, right down to when he cleans his toenails, but no sect has got the wit, imagination or tolerance for ambiguity to accept the fact that its portrait is in all its particulars just a wild nice person guess, no more or less "correct" than the next sect's, nor does any sect have the wisdom or charity to say "y'know, the details really AREN'T all that important; whaddaya say we work out a COMMON approach ALL of us can accept before we kill each other or die of a blown carotid artery arguing with each other?"

TJ, you DO come very close to acting with the wisdom and charity of the last sentence, above - but in so doing it can be viewed by a typical sect as "hate" because it admits that some details about when "god" actually does clean his toenails might not be right.

Windstrings, if you need a somebody that hates and despises every and ALL conceptions of "god" equally and fully, without remorse, without reservation, to throw all your venom at, throw it at me, because I AM that somebody, and stop attacking TJ; his disagreement with you is trivial, amounting to what time "god" cleans his toenails on Tuesdays, whereas you both agree on the important attributes of your vision: something omnipotent, that takes a personal interest in each human being, and is concerned for man's overall welfare. I take the position that man, and ONLY man, can care about and influence his welfare, believe it strongly; you believe some supernatural entity has to be involved.

But ALL of us agree (I hope) that our paramount mutual interest should be bettering man's welfare, and if we can figure out to do that TOGETHER, rather than fight over whether heavenly toenails get cleaned or not or even exist at all, we'd all be MUCH better off, don't you think?

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 25 2007, 11:42 AM) [snapback]411859[/snapback]</div>

That is right. That is why I brought up the Catholics. And, as far as I know, Catholics are/were the first 'organized' Christian religion. My mother, a dyed in the wool Catholic, always said that if you were not Catholic, you were going to hell.

Nice.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 26 2007, 06:09 AM) [snapback]412209[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Mark.

I said, a long time ago, and with many gallons of water under the bridge, that ALAN and I both followed after God, Christ. He took it upon himself to differentiate between him and myself in such fashion as he has.

loveit, has remained out of this, and more to the wise is he.

Toenails, huh? Hmm. In all the years I have pondered God, I have never once thought of His toenails.

I imagine that they are rather large. I would suppose He has angels to take care of that.

I wonder. Well, thanks for giving me something to think about.

Mark, if I may. If, and I say , IF, God should show up, and perform a miracle, would you be inclined to believe it, or would you think it a 'trick of the light' so to speak? I am just curious. That's all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 25 2007, 10:50 AM) [snapback]411852[/snapback]</div>

We can only hope so. Thanks for the encouragement.

Story time. As you all who read this know, I met a 'friend' of ALAN'S Sunday. And while we talking he told me he did not agree with everything I had to say; no surprise, since he does go to ALAN'S church. BUT, and here is the pay off: He told me he respected my views, and told me that I had every right to believe that way, since no one knows all the answers.

Now, see, there are some Christians out there that can be tolerant... If they don't get squashed by others, we might all see a day where we all can get along.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 26 2007, 02:16 AM) [snapback]412210[/snapback]</div>

I answered this in another post I'm too tired to go find right now, where I posited the phenomenon of the Pacific Ocean suddenly cleaving open right down to the seabed between San Francisco and Hawaii, which is about as miraculous an occurrence as I can think up right now.

Were that to happen, I'd be shook up, no question. So would every scientist. And right away, I'd recall Arthur Clarke's truism: any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic. Something like that would HAVE to have a natural explanation, even if it turned out to be as outlandish an answer as a landing party from Procyon 5 blasting out a runway for their interstellar spaceship's first visit to earth (an answer I would look to BEFORE I would surmise some "god" at work).

Science encounters the weird and wild and mysterious all the time - not as dramatic as parting the ocean, but often just as baffling. And through persistence, sometimes spanning lifetimes, science ALWAYS finds the natural law explanation. They key thing here is this: Just because we're ignorant about the particulars of a process does NOT mean "god" must have done it. All it means is we still have things to learn.

I honestly cannot imagine ANYTHING, TJ, that I wouldn't look at as "a trick of the light", something that only illuminates how little we know about a wide, infinite universe, and would in fact be a new beacon lighting the path of discovery to new understanding of how the universe works. As said before, your restored hearing, were it to happen to me, I would regard as purely a natural phenomenon, and would hasten to the doctor to find out as much as possible so as to prevent LOSING what I had just gained.

I'm an atheist because I find every vision of "god" an absurd and preposterous concoction of man's feeble imagination. But I don't discount the possibility that there might be some"godlike" force of nature we haven't discovered yet. However, I believe (and it's only a belief) that were something like that to exist, we'd be able to assess the natural laws it follows, and it's be no more mysterious than a tornado once we'd catalogued everything we'd probed it to find out.

Hope that answers -

Mark

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 26 2007, 06:45 AM) [snapback]412212[/snapback]</div>

Yup, it does. Thanks; it give me insight.

You know, I once thought that magic was not real, but I have seen this trick...and if anyone knows how it is done, let me know.

This guy takes any, and I mean, any deck of cards (sealed, you bring them; it does not matter), and he will have you open the cards and pick one. I once had him use a sealed UNO deck; like I said, it does not matter.
Anyway. You pick out the card. Of course, you don't tell the guy what card it is. And he will have you put it in anywhere you want to in the deck.

Then, he will make that card rise out of the deck. He has done this standing behind the deck, on the other side of the room, in a closet...he has leaned the deck against a glass, a wall, a door, a person...and every time, the card that you choose, rises from the deck.

Now, the more spiritually inclined will say that has something to do with demons, and I for one, can't quite say that is not correct.

But! To this day, I have no idea how he does this trick. It's simply amazing. So, does anyone know how it is done?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 26 2007, 02:55 AM) [snapback]412213[/snapback]</div>

Type "rising card" into Google and you'll get not quite 9,000,000 hits. Now, contemporary tricks are still secret, so some of the particulars you mentioned are not in the public domain yet. But rising card tricks are 15 cents a gross, and if you spend an hour lookng at what IS in the public domain for rising a card out of a deck, you'll see that invoking demons is never necessary (and a good thing, too, because "giving your right arm" to learn how to do a trick takes on new meaning when you hire a demon for the job)!

MB