Down to the Rapture

<div align="left">I forget which book it is, but its declared early on.. that the life is in the Blood.
Remember God said the soul that sins shall surely die.
God make provision so that a blood sacrifice could stand in for the one worthy of death... obviously it couldn't be another human being as he had his own right to life, but it could be an animals life "or blood".

Finally, throughout the ages the most acceptable sacrific was a lamb, pure and perfect without blemish. They couldn't bring God the straggly one of thier flock and call it a "sacrifice", but it had to be the very best.

Again.. finally, God also gave of his very best... his own son to be an offereing for the sins of the whole world.

Thats why when God told Abraham to sacrific his own son as he was testing his obedience... it was merely a type and shadow of what was to come through that same blood line... "Jesus".</div>
<div align="left">The Angel stopped his hand once he saw his heart and God provided another sacrific as a ram just got caught up in the brush for Abraham to use instead of his son.</div>
<div align="left">
The saving grace "if you will" for Jesus is that.. although he took the sins of the world upon himself and therefore should be dead... he also had rights to his life that he walked in the flesh as it was taken wrongfully since he was spotless and sinless. He had the rights.. but he gave them up for us.

Although he lost his fleshly life "as it was written to do so for everyone that sinned".. he still was without sin himself and arose in the power of the Son of God to resurrect from the dead.

Hence the ritual you see to this day of "baptism".. it typifies dieing to sin and being resurrected again with him.

Its only a ritual...... a ritual that can be very powerful if accompanied by the Holy Spirit infusing and blessing that ritual 'as was my experience".

A life for a life... simple as that.

Thats why all those who deny Jesus as being the son of God that took away the sins of the world "or" don't take advantage of that sin offering, they too will die just like an ordinary mortal in thier sins, but it will be an "eternal death".

Not only will they not benifit in this life the experience of being free from sin, but in the after life which lasts for eternity, they will be under the penalty of sin and its torment.

I know its not a pretty story.. but the bible is the "good news".. not the bad news... the Good news is that Jesus made a way out for all those who will accept Gods provision and sacrific for them. </div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 09:04 AM) [snapback]410777[/snapback]</div>

ALAN, you are so wrong...sorry, but you just are. What deception are you on about? The deception of man? The deception that God would hurt, while at the same time love? How can you not see that as deception?

I should leave you alone, and let you think that you have 'won' as you would put it, but as a Pastor, I must correct when God so clearly wants you to be corrected. You are the one with the dark heart, that is filled with hate for anyone, or any opinion other then yours. I can stand people having different opinions, and all, and even disagreeing with me. That is fine. But where have I told people, on this (or any other thread), that if they don't listen to my views, they are doomed to hell? Just because I don't agree with them?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 09:04 AM) [snapback]410777[/snapback]</div>

I don't even want to know the 'god' you know. The GOD I know, is the God of truth, and freedom. I am not bound by some rules like you are, since God knows no rules, at least that we as simple men can comprehend.

Your 'god' is mean, and hates, and seems to preach that you must hate others while under the guise of love. You condemn again and again, anyone who disagree with your take on things. You act as if you are the judge, jury, and executioner.

You have been mean to people, calling them blind, and other choice phrases. I am willing to agree to disagree with a lot of people, but you make that hard to do with you.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 09:04 AM) [snapback]410777[/snapback]</div>

I don't declare myself; I have a degree. I am working on a masters. If people are turned off by my style, so be it. But enough people don't seem to be; I have helped start several churches.

I have said, and it's based on the very scripture you adore, that Christ conquered sin. Sin has no power. Sin is the devil, if you did not get that. And His promise is open and available to all, not just the chosen ones, as you seem to think it is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Mar 23 2007, 01:45 AM) [snapback]410713[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 07:50 AM) [snapback]410773[/snapback]</div>

You're really not understanding a thing anyone says, are you? A thousand rambling, incoherent posts of your insulting, intolerant drivel has me wondering if you're mentally ill. Sharing your beliefs is one thing, but you have the worst case of religious fervour I've ever seen.

 

i can't believe this thread is still alive...

i really respect the people who make it clear they would like others to share their belief but do not force it or threaten others with whatever kind of punishment for not believing. there are multiple posters in this thread that fit into this category. there are also a number that don't.

leave the door open, don't try to drag people through it. it opposes the basics of human nature to force someone to believe something.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Mar 23 2007, 09:09 PM) [snapback]411216[/snapback]</div>

Thanks....I love that post.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]410794[/snapback]</div>

I was raised as a CATHOLIC. I was molested by a Catholic priest. Forced to do oral acts on him, as he stood above me with a metal rod, ready to bash me if I did not. Then, he would sodomize me. Yeah, that is the church I was raised in.

I did not embrace sin, as you put it. Sin was forced on me. And I forgave that man, and I have moved on. But don't you ever try to assume for a moment on how I was raised.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]410794[/snapback]</div>

Well, if one looks at God as being the father of all, good and bad, then yeah, God is the father of sin.

However, I think you were trying to insult me, and accuse me of following Satan, the father of all sin, right, ALAN? Isn't that what you were trying to do?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 23 2007, 10:30 PM) [snapback]411314[/snapback]</div>

So you go on to promote a corrupt organization like that. I pity you foolish boy.

The flying spaghetti monster will have his revenge on people like you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]410794[/snapback]</div>

Boy ALAN, it's one thing to insult me, over and over, but to drag my wife into this, that takes it to a whole other level of hate.

Again, ALAN, my God is Christ. Which is suppose to be your God.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rand Reed @ Mar 24 2007, 12:34 AM) [snapback]411319[/snapback]</div>

HA! Promote? Hardly. But, to be fair, not all Catholics are like that. Just some.

 

Does anyone know if there is a way to permanently block all posts from a particular person on here?

Oh look - I just found it . . . .

[attachmentid=7059]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 23 2007, 10:29 AM) [snapback]410795[/snapback]</div>

I am angry at ALAN, true, but mostly because he attacks others, and myself, over and over...and now he is dragging in my wife. I am but a man, who has a boiling over point, and he has pushed me to that point.

Rare does a person on the internets do that, but ALAN has a special gift.
As to judging, no, I don't think loveittoomuch judges. For the most part. He does from time to time, put things in a way that seems to say, 'it's God's way or the highway.'
As for windy? ALAN? He is like Judge Dread. I think that is how that comic book character was spelled.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 11:02 AM) [snapback]410809[/snapback]</div>

Who are you to decide what a sin is and what a sin isn't? You God?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 23 2007, 10:49 AM) [snapback]410800[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for pointing that out. I am glad I am not the only one to see it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 10:51 AM) [snapback]410802[/snapback]</div>

Yes, so it seems. Well, you worship. I just trust God, not worship. Worship is a word that I don't subscribe to. I follow Christ, true.

As to different Gods, your 'god' seems to hate, and is all about hating others who don't believe. Where as Christ, God to me and millions of others, seems to love, and not hating just because we disagree. I don't think Christ would have put down another mans wife, like some have.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 10:51 AM) [snapback]410802[/snapback]</div>

Why don't you just name names, ALAN? The truth is, the truth is, I am trying my best to not just be as mean spirited as you on these threads. I am trying to do that, but you make it so hard.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rand Reed @ Mar 23 2007, 07:34 PM) [snapback]411319[/snapback]</div>

I think its a sad commentary when someone can be as cruel as you have been to someone who says they were victimized. The victim is never to blame; the rapist is always at fault, especially when its someone in a position of authority abusing children.

Your post is an example to everyone of the vicious nature of some anti-Christian bigotry in this country. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

Just a compliment to TJ here for doing something this fossilized old atheist (me) thought utterly impossible: pursuing and discussing religion and belief in God (which I'll capitalize here in deference to the spirit of what TJ is accomplishing) in rational, thought through terms.

I confess I'm amazed that such a rational approach hasn't actually undermined your faith rather then strengthened it, but what it proves is that the human mind is still very much beyond our scrutiny, that no two minds ever perceive the universe through the same window, and that if we're ever to have any hope at all of getting along with each other it will be only through sustained, often frustrating but ultimately mutually revealing dialogues.

Keep on truckin' TJ - I still disagree with your slant, but I very much like your approach, demeanor, consideration, compassion, open mind, and patience!

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rand Reed @ Mar 24 2007, 12:42 AM) [snapback]411327[/snapback]</div>

Is there a reason for this? I don't think I even know you. Well, I suppose it will never be answered, since I am apparently on ignore with him.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 11:02 AM) [snapback]410809[/snapback]</div>

When that 'word' is flawed in the first place...how can anything line up with it? When man has put his agenda into it, how can it be Holy? Perfect? Sanctified? It can't. Early church leaders had an agenda to promote, which was to gain new believers to their flock. They thought, incorrectly as it turned out, that Christ was coming back any second, and wanted to prepare the earthly kingdom for Him, with themselves in charge as generals at the table. The early church leaders did not have centuries to delve into the Bible, to figure out the allogorical parts...nor was their intellect up to the task.

Now, I can't speak for you, ALAN, or anyone else for that matter, but I don't want a God that loves sin. I believe God conquered sin, and we are free from it's eternal ramifications.
Again, to make sure you understand, I am not saying that if you 'sin' here on earth, that you won't have to pay for it now. You will. You steal, get caught, you will do the time. Consequences.

You are somehow missing what I am saying; I am not sure how/why you are.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 11:02 AM) [snapback]410809[/snapback]</div>

You really seem like a religious fanatic, as someone else pointed out, with that section there. ALAN, is it possible, even remotely, that Christ is many things, to many people? To you, He may seem to be a white guy wearing robes; to some, He may be a vegan hippie; to others a rich tycoon...Christ was a Man for all People.

It seems to me, that if I continue to point out how you sound like the pharisees, and how you act like them, you will just ignore me, and then, belittle me, but I have not been, as you would put it, 'released' from this as of yet.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 23 2007, 01:53 PM) [snapback]410937[/snapback]</div>

??? How would you know, for one minute, how any other Christian works? How would you know how ALL the Pastors have taught? How would you know if they don't have it right, and you have it wrong?
I know of plenty of Pastors who don't preach on tithing, at all. Heck, Pastor Bob Coy, his church, Calvary Chapel, does not even have a membership, yet has almost 30,000 people each week attend his church?

And, if you are directing that line, 'yet profess themselves to be teachers when they themselves need to go back and be taught.' towards me, then come out and say it, ALAN.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 23 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]410986[/snapback]</div>

Certainly, loveitomuchyetwon'ttellushisname.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 23 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]410986[/snapback]</div>

Oh, I know of what you speak; I just don't find the line, 'covered by the blood of Christ' too appealing. Kinda gross. Sort of medieval, to be fair.

So I prefer just being covered by Christ, thanks.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 23 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]410986[/snapback]</div>

??? Not sure I follow there. When a man and virgin make love? Is the man a virgin as well? I mean, I was not nor was my wife, a virgin when we both got married, (and it was our first marriage). Of course, at the time I was the escaped Catholic, and she was the Born Again Believer. She was 'saved' long before I was. Yet, we both were not virgins.
I don't know many virgins. And in counseling, that I used to do, I found myself talking to a lot of young people that were no where close to being virgins.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Mar 23 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]411144[/snapback]</div>

Well said, I'm afraid. What makes me sad, is that it has to be said at all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 24 2007, 02:24 AM) [snapback]411372[/snapback]</div>

Thanks. I don't even know this guy...whatever got into him? But, again, thanks. That was nice of you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 24 2007, 02:29 AM) [snapback]411375[/snapback]</div>

Mark, that means a lot to me. Really does. You continue to disagree with me, I would not expect anything less.

It's never been, to me at least, an issue of who is right, who is wrong. It is an issue of whatever gets you through the night, is alright, is alright...said the late great John Lennon.

Which, I got to met before he died. Did you know he loved the 700 Club? It's true.

Anyway. Mark, livelychick (hope I am spelling that right; too lazy to look), others...even when you have disagreed with me, none of you have told me I am going to hell, or am going to be eaten by the spaghetti monster, or whatever. You have (some of you), said that I may be delusional, nuts, for believing in God. Which is your prerogative. What gets me about ALAN, is that he wants you all to see it his way, with no other option.

He is saved, and is believing, that it's his mission to save everyone else. But I would say, if you will allow me, that it's not through ALAN we are to be saved, it's through Christ. And by that, I mean, that if you wish to embrace Christ, and what He spoke of, great.

You can, and many do, embrace the ideals of Christ (the whole peace love and understanding thing), and still not be a Christian. You can never believe. And to my view, Christ would be okay with that. In His years here, He took time to point how the meek shall inherit the earth. Not the strong and pushy. Christ said, that many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. Which is often interpreted as to say, one never knows where one stands with Christ; one never knows their 'status' since, I think, Christ was alluding to us all be equal.

I think that there are millions and millions and millions of people in heaven, that none of us would ever expect to be there. I, for one, do not know the mind of God; as in, who is to say that God won't just let us all in? Maybe God has no plans as outlandish as outlined in Revelation. Maybe one day, the planet just stops, and we all get off at the food court, and have a great time with one another.

I guess, what it boils down to, is the rapture works for those desperate for order in a chaotic universe. It's comforting to some, that they have have something to look forward to; that they will be 'right' and all the others will be 'wrong', when I think in the end, no one knows.

Not even Christ Himself knew the plans of His father. I think that Mark and Daniel will be along side others, others that may be surprised to see them.

Nothing will surprise me on the other side. Nothing.


Well, a lack of all you can eat SONNY'S; that might surprise me.



As a Preacher, I was taught to open my mind, and my heart would follow, when it came to Christ. I was taught by some of, what many would consider, brilliant theologians, who differed so often with me, that I often wondered if I would ever graduate from university. But when I was given my diploma, I was singled out as the one person who was not afraid to upset the apple cart, and that if the church was going to survive into the 21st century, they needed more apple cart up-setters.

ALAN is so against me, and my 'radical' views, for it shakes the very foundation of his beliefs . He has been taught for so long, to look at anything other then blind devotion, as acts of the devil. It's in his, soul, so to speak.

Which is fine. Hard as it may be for some, after all these lengthy posts, I too have room to forgive ALAN for his comments, his harsh words. I have to offer him an apology, for being mad. Sorry, ALAN.

If this is the last post I write here on this thread, and it may be, (who knows), I want to leave it with the feeling that I tried to follow Christ, and to be more like Him.

Peace out, for now.

TJ

PS: Here is one that ALAN might even agree with:

Matt 5:25-26
Say you’re out on the street and an old enemy accosts you. Don’t lose a minute. Make the first move; make things right with him. After all, if you leave the first move to him, knowing his track record, you’re likely to end up in court, maybe even jail. If that happens, you won’t get out without a stiff fine.

 

Question for Windstrings & Loveit:

"God" is all love and forgiveness, per your explanations. He'll forgive anyone for any sin. Hitler. Pol Pot. Stalin. Idi Amin. Even Dick Cheney (although that would be pushing even a "god's" limits, but let's continue ...) The worst and most vile depredations against humanity are as nothing; they are mere "works", after all, and so will be forgiven with sweeping equamity.

That's provided, of course, that the transgressor believes, even if just for a few last moments before expiring, that "god" put his "son" up as a sacrifice to himself so that he could be unconditionally forgiving (thus satisfying some sort of law even "god" must be powerless to overcome, apparently: that absent killing some poor harmless, innocent bastard, "god" would be compelled to be a bastard, incapable of forgiveness).

So, "god" will forgive anyone anything, IF they believe that, even for a just a few seconds.

But one thing, and the ONLY thing, this all loving, forgiving "god" CANNOT forgive is failure to believe that particular interpretation.

And that doesn't strike you as so perverse a logic as to be actually evil? That you can commit any sin you want so long as you merely believe an event took place for a particular reason, but if you question any aspect of the event or the reasons for it, not even a lifetime devoted to noble and altruistic deeds will ameliorate "god's" ability to forgive you that disbelief?

"God" can forgive your committing genocide, but not how you feel about a remote historic event?

Windstrings and Loveit, what exactly is "loving" or "forgiving" about such a perverse "god"?

And don't give me all this crap about "god so loved the world he gave his only son ..." All "god" gives a rat's nice person about is that you believe that bilge. Believe it - he "loves" and "forgives" you, even if you stand before him your hands bloody with the massacre of millions. Disbelieve it - your nice person is toast, even if your actions saved millions of lives.

Answer the question so a rational mind can see the justice of mere disbelief, nothing more, making it impossible for a supposedly "All" loving and forgiving "god" to love and forgive you.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 24 2007, 06:31 AM) [snapback]411436[/snapback]</div>

Even though you started this with a bad joke, therefore making me doubt your desire to realy know the answer, I'll answer.

In the strictest sense, YES, if God wishes to save these vile people, he can. I choose to believe that these people would never even THINK of asking for forgiveness.

Mark, you being simply a man, cannot question God about who he saves...it is realy none of your business since it only applies to the afterlife anyway.

Wouldn't it be a pity if Idi Amin was in heaven and you were not? How sad!!!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 24 2007, 12:07 PM) [snapback]411551[/snapback]</div>

Thank you, Karl, for your answer despite your belief I posted the question as bait (I don't intend them as "bait", although I freely confess I do mock, very strongly, what appear to me to be irreconcilable (and therefore absurd) logical inconsistencies, or insupportable assumptions in specific sectarian beliefs).

To pursue your answer: If it is indeed true that no conceivable depradation perpetrated on earth will prevent "god's" forgiving it, if the perpetrator honestly believes the crucifixion was arranged for that express purpose of "erasing" his sin, then there is NOTHING, certainly NO MORAL reason, to prevent a believer from acting entirely as he pleases during life! All that's necessary is honest belief in the purpose behind an historic event, and he can rape, pillage and murder without a flutter of conscience, knowing "god" will smile at him in the end and a comfortable residency in eternity is assured.

What must stay the believer's hand, then, ISN'T "god's" disapproval, but MAN's disapproval. It is MAN's imposition of human morality that compels decent behavior. "God" couldn't care less what anyone does on earth - except, of course, thay they BELIEVE. MAN, on the other hand, cares very much about what happens on earth, and enacts moral codes to make life here as pleasant as possible.

Now I know the bible is crammed cover to cover with "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" - but in all candor, Karl, WHY BOTHER with any of it if the only thing that matters is mere belief?

I'm quite positive many real life villains justify their depradations with precisely this logic, and there isn't a thing wrong with such logic by biblical standards.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 23 2007, 11:01 PM) [snapback]411401[/snapback]</div>

Why would you care? Check out his posting history.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 24 2007, 04:31 AM) [snapback]411436[/snapback]</div>

First of all.. God cannot be perverse... He started it all.... why would he divert from his idea that he started and created and saw it was good?
He says he changes not.. he is the same today, yesterday and forever.
Let God be true and every man a liar..

But in answer to your question... please analyse the parable of the prodical son... when the prodical son came back, he was in a state of total offense, blown all his inheritance and had disgraced his Fathers name....

But in his Fathers love, he was accepted back becaue the son came back humbled with no arrogance expecting anything since he knew he was unworthy of sonship and only hoped to be a servant.. he was repentant... So the Father ignored all his offenses and welcomed him back with open arms allowing his love to have full impact.

Notice..he came back to the Father, the father did not go to him on his terms.

I see no where in the bible where God rejects anyone who is repentant and ready to submit to Gods way.

Now, I also see no where in the bible where God accepts someone who is unrepentant and clings to thier sin and won't let it go.... Do you?

Look at the adulterous woman or any other story.. God forgives and then says go and sin no more.
He said that because sinning again would prevent her from being free from the sin he just forgave her forr and therefore she would be in a worse state than before.

No where "in his love" does he allow people to fellowship with him in thier sin.

Jesus mixed and mingled with sinners, but that was to preach to them.. not to take them to heaven or give them entrance into the Kingdom.

Sin is your enemy.. not just Gods, but yours too

People keep getting hung up on an idea that Gods love must be impure if it will accept only under certain terms... but thats not the problem... the problem is Sin "separates" people from God and his forgiveness simply because he is Holy and cannot mix with sin.

He even says, no man can serve two masters.

How can God forgive, but then say you can't come close to me because you still stink with sin?

Thats the whole point... God cannot allow sin in his fellowship.

God loves the sinner, but hates their sin and as long as the sinner is not repentant, they cannot know God.

If someone can't fathom and accept that, then they can't accept God.......

I 'm sorry if that offends anyone, but thats just the way it is.. God is a Holy God and he says.. "ye shall be Holy, even as I am Holy".. but I promise you, He is only talking to repentant sinners that have accepted his grace and blood covering of atonement for forgiveness of sins..

People don't want to release thier sinful lifestyles so they can be brought up to God, so instead they try to pervert God to make him equal with sinners... totally demonic in source.

But if you don't believe in God, then you don't believe in demons either.. because they testify of God and tremble at his name.

I think one of the best ways to convince an athiest of the realness of God is to watch an exorcism and the finger of God cast out a resistant devil!.. quite a side show as the devil manifest and attempts to fight back but has no chance!

I know.. I speak of fairy tales again right?.... thing again!.. Its very real.. and so is God....