Down to the Rapture

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 17 2007, 12:25 AM) [snapback]407190[/snapback]</div>

You used over 15,000 words, or characters in your reply.

And I just have to say, wow. That is a lengthy response. So, I will answer yours in shorter order.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 17 2007, 01:37 AM) [snapback]407325[/snapback]</div>

LOL!... HI TJ!... I think he's one of them long winded preachers if you give him a chance!....

We lways hate to let my dad pray for meals..... we're afraid we will have to reheat it all! :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 16 2007, 07:25 PM) [snapback]407190[/snapback]</div>

I agree with everything you wrote, but I did note it did not answer the question. I will go with my original assumption, then.





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 16 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]407202[/snapback]</div>

This is what I was getting at, and I thank you for actually answering the question.

I think its an important question, because if you truly believe that a person's eternal salvation hangs on whether or not you answer their question in the most appropriate manner, then you have taken the power of deciding who is saved from God, and assigned it to yourself.

When you talk to people about their salvation experience, you'll get all sorts of stories. Every conceivable combination of people who converted when they saw their baby born, had dreams, talked to friend, sought out god and found Jesus to be the fulfillment of that search, married a Christian, etc. It is not, in the end, an intellectual exercise for most people; it is a spiritual one. And God initiates it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 16 2007, 11:00 PM) [snapback]407211[/snapback]</div>

You still haven't read about Quang Duc.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 16 2007, 07:57 PM) [snapback]407209[/snapback]</div>

I also agree that God's word does not return void, but I have to ask you ... what on earth do those verses have to do with the statement right before it, or the idea that people are won or lost based on the "effective" witnessing of Christians? The 2 Chronicles passage you cite is a dedication of a temple in a theocratic nation, not a treatise on witnessing or saying the right words otherwise people are lost. And besides, the sentiment in it is decidedly plural, with the "people" as a group praying, the "people" as a group repenting.

A true proof-text of your position would say something like "If my priests, who are called by my name, say the right words, then the people will turn from their wicked ways, and I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."

This text is often misquoted by evangelicals in an attempt to try and counter the anti-faith bias in our culture these days. But in its context it represents the idea that, in the evangelical vernacular, God does indeed have grandchildren, and that individuals can be saved by simply belonging to a society that is observant. That is not the message of the Gospel. It is the message of the Law.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 17 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]407449[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I did.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 17 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]407452[/snapback]</div>

I understand where Windstrings is coming from. I kind of understand where you are coming from too.

Remember the story about Jesus in the boat asleep with His disciples when the storm arose? And when Jesus woke up to the disciples cries, He said: "Peace be still." Even then the disciples said, "Who is this, that even the winds and the seas obey Him?"

Likewise, in this day and generation, all you have to do is look at what is happening in our world today.

There are rampant storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsuamis, fires, earthquakes, drought, famine, disease, and probably more than what I am aware of.

These very things are letting us know that they way we live, OUR WAY as opposed to God's way is leading directly to, hmm, how shall I say this? Leading to a very nasty ending for all of us if we do not turn around and do things God's way.

God says that He makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

It's like a group of kids at school who disobeyed and do something really stupid. So the principal says, okay, who did it? and no one 'fesses up; and so ALL THE KIDS suffer the same punishment unless the guilty one comes forward and makes a clean slate.

Yeah, I know, it's not the greatest analogy but it is very close.

We all live in the same world and believe it or not what one does in life has a tremendous impact on others.

You know all about the sowing and reaping.

That's why Windstrings put that quote in there about: "If my people, which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray, and seek My Face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and heal their land."

Yes, not only are believers sons and daughters of God but we are also priests too according to biblical scriptures. So yes, we need to rightly divide the word of truth.

We do have a responsibility as I have notated in the previous post to present the whole GOSPEL MESSAGE.

It is the Holy's Spirit's job to convict and that's His job, if we do ours.

We are also called to correct one another when there is error. That is what was Daron was doing.

Now let me ask you this, what do you think will happen if the whole GOSPEL MESSAGE was NOT presented but just parts?

 

I had every intention of letting this thread go, but I just can't...I do not know, call it a message from my "higher power", as others have claimed for their continued participation.

First and foremost, TJ--this is MOST emphatically not aimed at you--I am quite sure I would very much enjoy spending some time talking about ANYTHING with you--and your very obviously open and wise mind.

Naming no other names, I find it difficult to comprehend how so many of the self-proclaimed "faithful" believe that anyone who does not accept Jesus as their savior is just flat out wrong, and cannot find it within his or her self to acknowledge that OTHER BELIEFS EXIST AND ARE VALID.

The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was written in 1779 by Thomas Jefferson. It proclaimed:

"[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

How many of us can recognize in the above, gee, what is it--oh yeah, the Amendment to our Constitution that comes before #2? And is a whole lot clearer in its intent?

As to the comments in the last few pages about particularly defined consequences for suicide, well, those of you who have made your disapproval clear, all I can say is that you seem to me to be entirely unclear on the concepts of human pain and forgiveness. I don't know. Maybe you are lucky to have never experienced such pain--you must be, to be able to accept condemnation for anyone driven to such an extreme, and to be able to accept the agonies your condemnation puts upon the family of the tortured one driven to such an extreme.

I have said it before..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." How can there be anything that matters more?

Until you are willing to learn and practice THAT, please, don't think you have anything you can say to me that will either save or educate me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rufaro @ Mar 18 2007, 09:08 AM) [snapback]407845[/snapback]</div>

I think you're missing the root of the Christian faith. I don't even think that you are wrong if you choose not to accept Christ to pay for the sin in your life and trust in him to pay your dinner check when you are standing before God with the bill in your hand. That's one choice, there are only two.

If you were told that all you have to do is ride a bike down the hill, push the red button on the big blue sign and a man will step out and hand you 10 million dollars. You do this and when you are freshly holding the 10mil, you see the fine print. "Anyone who rides their bike down the hill and pushes the button can get the same deal, doesn't matter what color their skin, shoes, hat or teeth are". Wouldn't you go tell people, especially your family and friends? What if the man who gave you the 10 mil asked you to please tell everyone because business has been a little slow.

Why would people believe you if you told them it was that easy?

So, thus the compelling story that saved Christians have to tell... Your only problem is having gotten in the way as the story is flying out in every direction.

From your perspective, doing unto others apparently is to keep our story of a changed life inside. Others would interpret "Doing to others as you would have them do unto you" being to "Tell me this great story of how Jesus Christ changed your life."

Would you want the last guy who rode his bike down the hill, pushed the button and got the 10mil to "Do unto you" by sitting down to dinner with you and not mentioning that big wad of cash in his wallet... or would you like him to "Do unto you" by relating that experience and telling you that you too can go pick up the cash if you want it?

Being forgiven of your sin and being accepted to spend eternity with God in heaven can no way be compared to any amount of money so if there is a better picture to be painted, I'm up for it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 17 2007, 12:23 PM) [snapback]407452[/snapback]</div>

What I was trying to impress was that although God gives us the right to be a part of his salvation process, there is another element in the process.
God seems to be patient and "wait" on us to respond and obey before he acts.
what happens to all the people that die in the meantime?.. another question I too do not know...
I'm sure God ultimately takes all that into consideration..... if it was so simply and black and white logistics, we would not need the Judgement seat where God makes the final judgement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rufaro @ Mar 18 2007, 09:08 AM) [snapback]407845[/snapback]</div>

I am speaking for me, when I say what I say.

And if you have lost a loved one to suicide, I am sorry for your loss; and for that matter anyone else who has lost a loved one to suicide.

Just because they commit suicide for whatever reason, still doesn't make it morally right.

If you don't believe me, ask TJ why he put his life on the line to save a young man who was threatening suicide?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Mar 18 2007, 06:35 AM) [snapback]407852[/snapback]</div>

Right here is one of the linchpins of the debate, this idea that ONE particular speculation about the nature of "god" represents the ONLY possibility. Here we are, looking at a closed, opaque package on the table, guessing at its contents. Nothing about the package itself gives any clue of what it contains; it's featureless, shapeless, its size hard to make out. Pick it up, nothing rattles, nothing shifts; put it on a scale and the scale reads "insufficient data". Now, what's on the outside of this mysterious package? A billion labels, ALL of them manmade, purporting to decribe the contents accurately and to the tiniest detail. You come along and say, "This label, THIS is the correct one. All the others are wrong." How the hell do YOU know? But you don't stop there. No, you keep going: "All those people who stuck their wrong labels on this package: they're doomed." It's very hard to imagine a more colossal, foolish conceit than that.

"But," you insist, "my life has truly been changed by believing THAT one label. The few other labels I've happened to catch a glimpse of (and I confess I just haven't read and know absolutely nothing about most of the other labels) just didn't grab me the way THIS label did. So it MUST be right."

Again, this is a colossal hubris, thinking that something that affected YOU in a particular way must mean that not only will it have the same affect on everyone else, but that it must be TRUE. The extreme narrow selfish self-centered conceit of this view is beyond reason. And you DEFEND such unreasonableness by asserting, stridently and repeatedly, that reason SHOULDN'T be used to evaluate either the package OR the label you picked, but by all means, you say, definitely use reason to evaluate all the other labels. Foolish is too weak a word to adequately describe such an attitude.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Mar 18 2007, 06:35 AM) [snapback]407852[/snapback]</div>

Here again the fundamentally selfish aspect of belief flutters with all its ugly colors unfurled. The full focus of your belief is on what happens to YOU: what reward YOU can expect for simply believing your label. Not what you can expect for living in an exemplary way, living in such as manner as to leave the world a better place for your having lived in it, or HOW to live in such a way, no, the ENTIRE focus of your belief is what YOU'LL get out of merely believing a particular way.

In terms of selfishness, and disregard for others, it's in my view deeply unethical, about the most immoral thing someone could do. Irrational belief is, I believe, one of the truly grave sins.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

Daron's point is very valid. We had an itinerant evangelical preacher this morning. His sermon was on "The Gospel" (GOOD NEWS) It was all about receiving the gospel, being transformed, and wanting to share the news with everyone.

I can hardly hold it in. I received something more valuable than ANYTHING this world has to give. It was free. So I want to tell all of you abot it.

Imagine, here I am incredulous that you wouldn't want it. HEY, it's FREE. I am a living miracle. It has transformed my life. There is no DOWN SIDE. You are NUTS for not wanting it.

Now, since God knew it would drive me nuts that you wouldn't want it, he provided me with solace that it is not MY FAULT that they don't want it.

So, while I feel bad you don't have what I have....I do not take it personally.

God insures me that "Whomsoever will....."

And, with God, there ARE only two choices....it is a silly construct of man...with full support of satan...to create a cornucopia of other "choices"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 18 2007, 10:52 AM) [snapback]407931[/snapback]</div>

Wasn't this what the bad old Commies believed, that having "choices" was a really bad thing?

THIS is what I HATE about most mainstream religious tendency: Forget alternatives. Alternatives are BAD. Got a question? Stuff it; it presents the possibility of an EVIL alternative. Follow what WE say BLINDLY, be steadfast in your DEAFNESS to any alternative idea, approach, thought or feeling.

And you wonder why I consider religion to be so anti-human. It slams closed the door to progress, for progress is only possible via the investigation of alternatives, seeking answers to the one question whose answers will always be infinite, filled with "choices": "Is THIS all there is - surely there must be more to life than THIS!"

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 18 2007, 04:19 PM) [snapback]407937[/snapback]</div>

And for Mark..behind door #2...we have..................

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 18 2007, 04:11 PM) [snapback]407961[/snapback]</div>

Threats aren't going to work either, Karl. I can understand you're filled with religious fervour after church on a Sunday morning, but too much light can be just as blinding as not enough. If you expect to be given the freedom to believe what you want, you must also give that freedom to others.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Mar 18 2007, 12:11 PM) [snapback]407961[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Mar 18 2007, 12:28 PM) [snapback]407969[/snapback]</div>

Threat? I don't think so. More like an invitation. Behind door #2 is merely the entire universe, in all its marvelous spectacle, filled with an infinity of "choices" to increase, enrich and deepen our all too brief inhabitance of it - if we make the effort to sound its depths, discover how it works, and make it work in our favor.

Karl's religion is so obsessed with what comes after biological death it virtually ignores living in the here and now. The here and now we can touch, see, feel, explore, and change to make the experience meaningful, not just for ourselves but for the generations that follow us. Karl's church would have us believe the here and now is nothing more than a squalid railroad depot where we wait out the purposeless days until some magic train arrives to take us where we really belong. If that's TRULY the case, what point is served by waiting? Suicide bombers realize there's no point in waiting and, believing that taking unwilling passengers with them gives them free passage, waste no time getting the hell out of the depot. THAT's taking the "logic" of most religious belief to its inescapable conclusion: leave NOW, stop waiting.

My "problem" (if you want to call it that) is that the here and now is the ONLY thing I know for certain. And I am NOT going to squander it by ignoring it in favor of somebody's irrational fantasy about what lies after the here and now (especially when there as many different irrational fantasies as there are people to imagine them). The here and now gets ALL my attention, thanks, and, perhaps most important, I do NOT in the slightest fear what, if anything, follows biological death. (This doesn't mean I look forward to death, mind; I want to live as long as possible and enjoy the here and now to the maximum, but when death arrives, I won't look with fear at whatever is beyond its ultimate edge. Like Woody Allen says, I'm not afraid of death, I just don't want to be there when it happens).

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 18 2007, 06:18 PM) [snapback]408029[/snapback]</div>

I took Schmika's intent as a not-so-thinly-veiled threat, to either agree with his choice or end up in hell, but I like your take much better. I might have said 'version of reality' instead of 'choice', but I'm going with the assumption that there is only one Reality we all inhabit, interpret, and influence, not six and a half billion 'versions.'

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Mar 18 2007, 08:35 AM) [snapback]407852[/snapback]</div>

Funny.... I wonder how many people let thier imaginations go yet farthur.
The scenario you just suggested may sound boring if not for the alternative of hell.

I've heard some say they don't want to float around on a damp cloud for instance!... LOL!

Eternity is a stinkin long time!... kinda like forever!....
First of all.. think how cool its gonna be not having to worry about the fact that some day life as you know it will end and there will be uncertainty waiting on the other side?... that will be done!.. forever to be in a state of power and glory to go on to adventure to adventure with God. No more sense of mortality....... isn't there something inside us all that makes mortality and death just not seem right or real?.. we are eternal and somehow we know that!

Think its gonna be boring?.. I think not!!!!.
First of all the sheer glory of God will be the highlight and the wonderous things he has prepared will by no means be boring... this whole thing of mankind will possibly continue on earth for a while as we rule and reign with him. Then after that... maybe God will do a whole new thing and do it all over again!.. or a whole new thing?.. who knows.... but being with God will be the most exciting thing above imagination to grasp.

I really think our whole lives on earth will be like a pale distant dream that never happened as the reality of heaven so overcharges our sense of reality.
We will look back on earth and be totally amazed we were not bored to tears everyday, compared to what we will know then.