Down to the Rapture

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 15 2007, 03:53 PM) [snapback]406192[/snapback]</div>

Funny you should mention evangelicals and John The Baptist not being a pastor...read this. This is from a 'traditional' pastor friend of mine, who pastors two small churches. It's a sermon he did a few years ago. It may seem long...but give it a moment of your time.

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GET THE WORD OUT
Jeremiah 20:7-13
At the end of the twentieth century, Life magazine compiled a list of the 100 greatest technological milestone of the second millennium. I was curious as to what the editors had ranked as the number one achievement of man over the last thousand years… certainly it would be man’s landing on the moon in 1969 – nothing could possibly top that! Nope, they ranked the moon landing as #31. Well, then it must be something like the discovery of penicillin… nope, that came in at #22. The number one technological milestone of the last millennium, according to this particular list, occurred in 1455 when a German goldsmith by the name of Johann Gutenberg invented a system of moveable type that could be used for printing.

Prior to that time, reading was relegated to the educated elite and noblemen. With Gutenberg’s invention, pages of text could now be mass-produced instead being hand-lettered by scribes. Gutenberg’s introduction of the printed page changed forever the way information could be spread around the world. Gutenberg immediately used his new-found technology to produce 200 copies of the Bible.

Living in the 21st century, the thought of a world without books seems distant and foreign. We all grew up knowing that anytime we wanted to learn about something we could look it up in a book. Or nowadays, we can just look it up on the Internet.

Life Magazine’s number one ranking of Gutenberg makes sense – thanks to him, the printed word could be mass-produced and distributed, thus disseminating knowledge throughout the world. This German goldsmith unleashed an information epidemic that rages to this day.

Gutenberg’s Bibles showed the printed page’s potential as a ministry tool. For the first time in history, God’s Word could be accessed and read by anyone. The message of the Gospel could now be shared throughout the world because of this new medium – the printed page.

With the Internet, modern society has, over the last ten years or so, seen an information epidemic rivaling that of the one set in motion by Gutenberg. Like the first printed books, the Internet has changed the way people learn. Today a man can sit down at a keyboard and access virtually all the knowledge that has ever been attained in the history of mankind – without even leaving his home! Like the first printed books, the Internet makes knowledge accessible to anyone, and, just like printed books, the Internet enables anyone to distribute knowledge and thoughts to others.

Over the last several years, people have come to realize the Internet’s potential as a valuable ministry tool. Sermons, Bible studies, theological commentaries, church websites, Christian discussion boards – all of these can now be accessed from the comfort of your own home. All you need is a computer and a phone line to see how the information age has caught on to the Kingdom Age.

About a year and a half ago, I received an email from a pastor named TJ Maher. He had seen my sermons on a website, and he wished to include them in the “Daily Irish News,” a five-day-a-week newsletter he produced and distributed via email to some 78,000 readers. Over the years, TJ, has included my the texts of my weekly sermons. The “Daily Irish News” now has a readership of over 100,000. Can’t you see the potential of the Internet as a ministry tool?

This past Tuesday, I had the opportunity to meet Rev. Maher in person. He was driving home to Pompano Beach Florida from Virginia, so we made plans to meet for lunch on 1-95 . Up to this point, he and I had only communicated through email and spoken briefly on the phone, but I looked forward to meeting him in the flesh and shaking the hand of this fellow minister.

We enjoyed a wonderful time of fellowship that afternoon. Both of us shared with one another our different experiences in our pastoral journeys. We discussed insights on the Bible and God. We shared our testimonies on how we each came to be called to a life of ministry.

Non-Traditional Funny thing about TJ – he sure doesn’t look like a minister. He knows it too – he says people tell him so all the time. Maybe it’s the T-shirt and the shorts, maybe it’s the canvas Chuck Taylor high-top tennis shoes, maybe it’s the earring. He looks like someone you’d more likely see at a skateboard park or a rock concert than behind the pulpit in a church sanctuary. TJ Maher does NOT fit the mold of a traditional minister, and I doubt he would ever WANT to be seen in that role. I’m not sure I could even picture this man as the head of a church.

Reverend Maher does have a church, of sorts, but it is a church without walls and a church without boundaries. Most of his congregation has never set foot in a church. Some have never even thought about church, or God for that matter. Reverend Maher serves an ever-changing sea of wanderers. On a typical Monday night, TJ’s congregation might be the members of a Miami car club, Tuesday afternoon it’s a couple of teenagers buying DVDs at Circuit City, Wednesday morning his congregation is the crew working at a car wash, Thursday it’s the wait staff at Sonny’s Bar-B-Q… TJ’s church is wherever TJ happens to be, and the congregation is anyone who will listen to what this man has to say about God.

TJ told me, “If Jesus came back today, He wouldn’t go to a church, He’d go to Target or Wal-Mart – that’s where all the people are who need to hear about Him.” That’s why this irreverent Reverend dresses as he does, and hangs out where he does. He wants the people to see him as one of them – then, perhaps, they’ll listen to what He has to say.

Walk into a typical traditional church on a Sunday morning, and you pretty much know what to expect. The minister will look like a minister, and you’ll listen to what he has to say through the filter of your preconceived idea of what a minister is like. It won’t strike you as odd to hear a minister speaking about Jesus Christ and Salvation, especially in a church on a Sunday morning. But what about a guy with an earring hanging out at the carwash – do you expect HIM to be talking about Christ?

I see this preacher in tennis shoes as being a bit like Jeremiah. People may question what he has to say because he doesn’t look like a preacher. For this reason they might even mock the things he says, or they may ridicule him simply because they refuse to listen to the Word of God… but regardless of how he is received, Reverend Maher spreads the word in his unorthodox fashion because he HAS to. He preaches to the unchurched outside the church because he cannot keep his mouth closed. He knows the Good News of Jesus Christ, and he cannot keep quiet about it. As Jeremiah said, “his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.”

Yet, with all the technological advances in communications over the last 1000 years, from printing to the World Wide Web, most believers still see the church as the main place to hear God’s Word proclaimed. For some reason, many still feel a pastor is the only one qualified to preach the Gospel and win souls over to Christ, because no one else is willing to risk being ridiculed for proclaiming that Jesus is Lord. Where is that fire? Have you got it shut up so tightly in your bones it can’t get out? Or is it that you feel like you CAN hold it in?
Folks, Jesus Christ died for our sins! He was raised from the dead! He lives! Because He lives, we can live FOREVER! How can you keep quiet about something like that?!

The message of God’s love needs to be told. It can be told through the printed word, it can be told through the Internet, and it can be told by ministers in the churches. But as a funny little man named TJ Maher showed me, a minister doesn’t have to stand behind a pulpit to tell the world about God. Sometimes, the world won’t listen to someone who looks like a preacher. They need someone who’s one of them.

So what if a minister doesn’t fit the traditional mold of a pastor? To be honest, you don’t even have to BE a minister. You just have to have that fire down deep in your bones. Then, you’ll have to tell it, whether you’re a minister or not. You won’t be able to keep it in.

Amen.
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(edited to respect this man's location and his name private; it's not mine to give away).



ALAN, I share this with you (and others), to help you see, well, me. If we were to meet in person, I suspect, you might react in a different manner then you might on line. Maybe I am wrong...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 15 2007, 05:15 PM) [snapback]406253[/snapback]</div>

Well, about the only thing I take is Advil. I am not much into drugs, of any kind, and sometimes I react in a negative way towards traditional drugs. For instance, I am deathly allergic to penicillin.
Pain, as it once was said, is such a rush. I am so used to the pain, that those moments when it is gone, I am quite surprised.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 16 2007, 02:17 AM) [snapback]406667[/snapback]</div>

I believe that is an office God gives you and gives an anointing that gives you that ability.
That means that anointing affects others who sit under you.

Basically a shepherd that have been given authority by God to be responsible for and watch over the affairs of a people and be a resource for them towards God.
The prophetic person does not have that bond and allegence with a set group of people like that...
And people will not automatically like the prophet, nor feel warm and fuzzy to want to know him and be close to him.

A pastor will have an ability to see into thier hearts and be empathetic and almost know that they are thinking at times in order to help them.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 15 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]406623[/snapback]</div>

I don't believe the recklessness of man determines others destiny's, but the obedience sometimes does.
God will execute his will and if one person is not obedient, he will raise up another and empower them instead.

What if Jonah would not have responded.. would the city have been destroyed?... I don't think so.. God already knew and prepared thier hearts... he would have raised up another, but in his mercy, he sent Jonah to his ways and means commitee!



The other thing I keep thinking about is Noah... no one at all listened to him and he only ended up taking his family on the ark!.. The whole world was destroyed!.....

Predestined?... yes, but how much was given into the power of man to cicumvent??? I don't know.



I don't really know the honest answer as to what was going through Gods mind on that one, but evil had really taken over things and God made a decision.

I"m sure Noah was seen as a wacko who didn't have a clue either.



All the fakes make it so when the real comes along, everyone ignores it.



I also know we are required to pray for others so that too may be saved or helped.



Something about giving the decision back to man that was lost in the garden.

God restored the right to have dominion over the earth.. since satan is here now, he's included to be under our feet.



Satan has been demoted to less than janitor!

He hates men and the authority God has given us and the closeness He has befriended us with.

The devil used to be called Lucifier "the light bearer" and was the fairest of all the angels and many believe he was the worship leader in heaven.



Something about doing this through "man" rather than only the hand of God that increases his punishment the more and shows the excellency of God.



All of heaven knows God can beat satan out of his sheer power, but by doing it through man, or at least letting him be a major team player, shows the glory of God even more!



Almost in a way, its like Satan tried to get to God "and still does" through what he loves the most "man", so God gets to satan by what he hates the most "man"!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 15 2007, 10:41 PM) [snapback]406534[/snapback]</div>

Do you have a source that says Buddha demands that you die for him? If you don't, you're talking out of your hat.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 15 2007, 10:41 PM) [snapback]406534[/snapback]</div>

Actually, Buddha's way leads to Nirvana.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 15 2007, 10:41 PM) [snapback]406534[/snapback]</div>

While not a Buddhist, I think the view Buddhism takes on immolation is pretty clear ...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(What Buddhists Believe @ © 2002 K Sri Dhammananda)</div>

The monks in desynch's pictures were protesting and that's how they chose to do it. His point about the strength of their beliefs is valid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 16 2007, 12:36 AM) [snapback]406623[/snapback]</div>

God holds us accountable. But I believe that God knows our hearts better than any other.

We are called to be OBEDIENT to go out into all the world.

He said to be A WITNESS. Big difference in being a witness and witnessing.

We can be a witness just by being kind, or doing something out of the ordinary to bless someone else.

Just like when TJ paid for a couple's dinner at a restaurant or fast food place. (Don't remember which.)

But we are called to love one another as we love ourselves.

Therein lies the problem. Too many people don't love themselves because they see themselves as NOT PERFECT, and so BELIEVE that nothing they do accounts for anything.

But as a believer, we CANNOT do anything on our own to merit God's favor other than believing Him for what He says He will do, and that is He wants us to believe that He has made atonement for our sins by allowing His Son, Jesus, to die on the cross for us.

It's that simple. Nothing more and nothing less.

And when we do fall short of God's expectations, (you must read the bible to know what those expectations are), then you are suppose go to Him and agree with him where you have fallen short, and ask for the Help of the Holy Spirit in overcoming those shortfalls.

The bible says that "if we confess our sins, that He, (meaning God), if faithful and just to forgive us, and that they will be as far removed as the east is from the west. (meaning He will not remember them any more.)

Those sins, even for Christians, are covered under the shed blood of Christ.

When Jesus cried out His last words while dying on the cross, he said, "It is finished."

Meaning that His blood would cover every sin for all believers for all time.

If you are not a believer then you sins will not be covered/forgiven.

But also, as a believer, we are not to used the death of Christ as A LICENSE TO SIN.

That's why the bible says that the person who believes in Christ will NOT PRACTICE OR MAKE IT A HABIT TO SIN. The bible very explicitly says that there will be NO MORE ATONEMENT for that type of PRACTICE.

So... when we find ourselves in bondage to a sinful habit, that's when we need God's mercy the most, and the Help of the Holy Spirit to give us the strength to be an overcome in that particular area(s) of our lives.

The bible promises: "He who overcomes, I will make a pillar in the temple of My God." Meaning the we will reside with God forever.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 16 2007, 09:46 AM) [snapback]406736[/snapback]</div>

Dead men can't speak. They would have been better off alive doing the work that is necessary to change the world rather than killing themselves.

What a waste! and such DECEPTION!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 16 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]406750[/snapback]</div>

I agree that it was a waste, but wonder what you mean by deception.

You misrepresented Buddhism by saying "Buddha, and all the other gods demand that you die for them" and "Buddha's way leads to death". Unless you have a source for that, other than the personal beliefs dictated by your own faith, you're insulting anyone who follows Buddhism.

You wouldn't put up with anyone misrepresenting Christianity. Others have, and you have tried to correct what they say. I ask that you not misrepresent or demean the religions of others.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 15 2007, 10:41 PM) [snapback]406534[/snapback]</div>

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
--Abraham Lincoln

You are very uneducated and narrow minded. I'm really at a loss of words.. You are simply ignorant and uneducated.

How is it that you can keep telling me how wrong I am, when you know nothing of what I believe? ... The ignorance you are exhibiting is astounding!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 15 2007, 10:52 PM) [snapback]406542[/snapback]</div>

Yeah.. that's definitely a CONFIRMATION that your God is real.. *slaps forehead*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 16 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]406836[/snapback]</div>

Thats a good saying and it makes sense.. the bible has another one similiar with a tad difference to the meaning....

Even a fool is esteemed as wise if he keeps his mouth shut!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 16 2007, 10:02 AM) [snapback]406785[/snapback]</div>

I don't know allot about Buddha, but many religions spend all thier energy being reclusive from everyone "hiding thier light" and suffering and doing tons of works like crawling up mountains on thier bare hands and knees to prove thier sincerity and worthiness and its all a game of the devil to torment them and nullify what Jesus did on the cross to deliver them from works and bondage and keeping them so occupied working for thier salvation that they are no earthly good to anybody else?



The only dying Jesus ever mentioned we are to do is to deny our lust and fleshly desires so that Gods desires can take thier place.

God will never force himself upon us, but if we give place for him, he will come and dwell within us if we are doing it as unto him rather than ourselves.



Even fasting profits little if we are not focused on him while we fast.



Paul said "I die daily".. that means to the degree we die to our own drives and lust the Lord can take over.

Call it a "possession" if you will thats never "against" your will.

Hence the need for prayer... even the act of prayer is against the will of the flesh.

We must bring our body into subjection and not let it rule as its only enmity against the spritual things of God.



When you surrender to the Holy Spirit, you actually start having his thoughts and his mind and his heart... its amazing!... your own mind can fight against you and if you don't learn the art of putting down your own self "or earthly man" so that he can take over, then you will be a "carnal christian".. therein is the walk of maturity......

But whether carnal or spiritual, they both are his children and under his saving grace.. just that he cannot entrust as much responsibility of the Kingdom to the carnal one as he is still too self willed and the devil can find place too easily to tear down what he is entrusted with.



If we are going to do works and suffer.. it needs to be out of faith and the suffering is inflicted by doing good as others who hate good doers will persecute. Never are we to purposely try and suffer except maybe to fast to get away for short periods of time to serve the lord without distraction.

If we try and suffer or "work" to be worthy, we are denying the sacrific that Jesus already made as we are attempting to create our own sacrific.



But if you never mix and mingle with the world because they are too corrupt, we can never be a light.



What good is a light, if its kept in a temple with 100's of other lights? Isn't that a bit selfish?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 16 2007, 12:39 PM) [snapback]406856[/snapback]</div>

I know of no religion which requires "crawling up mountains on bare hands". Certainly Buddhism doesn't. I don't know a lot about Buddhism, but I certainly know that. Unless you have a source, you're making a statement out of ignorance. It also makes you appear intolerant.

I suggest you follow your own advice ...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 16 2007, 12:24 PM) [snapback]406845[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 16 2007, 11:56 AM) [snapback]406881[/snapback]</div>

Wow, your a sweetheart... Whats up with you?....

Why do you think I was directing anything at you?

no offense intended, just so you know....



that also was not directed at desynch either... just a comparison of different truths that fit different situations.



Let try not to start the mudslinging again unless its called for at least!..... Isn't it nicer to just have good talking?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 16 2007, 11:02 AM) [snapback]406785[/snapback]</div>

The picture of the burning men, this is a representation of what it means to be a Buddhist? No? Yes?

So, they decide to commit suicide rather than call it immolation correct?

IT'S EASY TO DIE, BUT EXTREMELY HARD TO LIVE.

Taking one's own life is the coward's way out.

In the end, men who do not worship the Lord God Almighty will earnestly seek death and not find it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 16 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]407006[/snapback]</div>

What even takes more of a man is to die daily and still live!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 16 2007, 05:46 PM) [snapback]407006[/snapback]</div>

Just a polite suggestion, do some reading about those pictures. That is not a representation of what it means to be Buddhist. Windstrings had asked something about true faith or something.. Which immediately reminded me of the Thich Quang Duc.

For those of you that don't want to read a little history..: (ps, how you can call this man a coward and a follower of the devil is beyond me. so very disrespectful and ignorant)

"On June 11, 1963, Thich Quang Duc, a Buddhist monk from the Linh-Mu Pagoda in Hue, Vietnam, burned himself to death at a busy intersection in downtown Saigon, Vietnam.. Eye witness accounts state that Thich Quang Duc and at least two fellow monks arrived at the intersection by car, Thich Quang Duc got out of the car, assumed the traditional lotus position and the accompanying monks helped him pour gasoline over himself. He ignited the gasoline by lighting a match and burned to death in a matter of minutes. David Halberstam, a reporter for the New York Times covering the war in Vietnam, gave the following account:

"I was to see that sight again, but once was enough. Flames were coming from a human being; his body was slowly withering and shriveling up, his head blackening and charring. In the air was the smell of burning human flesh; human beings burn surprisingly quickly. Behind me I could hear the sobbing of the Vietnamese who were now gathering. I was too shocked to cry, too confused to take notes or ask questions, too bewildered to even think…. As he burned he never moved a muscle, never uttered a sound, his outward composure in sharp contrast to the wailing people around him."

Thich Quang Duc had prepared himself for his self-immolation through several weeks of meditation and had explained his motivation in letters to members of his Buddhist community as well as to the government of South Vietnam in the weeks prior to his self-immolation. In these letters he described his desire to bring attention to the repressive policies of the Catholic Diem regime that controlled the South Vietnamese government at the time. Prior to the self-immolation, the South Vietnamese Buddhists had made the following requests to the Diem regime, asking it to:

1. Lift its ban on flying the traditional Buddhist flag;

2. Grant Buddhism the same rights as Catholicism;

3. Stop detaining Buddhists;

4. Give Buddhist monks and nuns the right to practice and spread their religion; and

5. Pay fair compensations to the victim’s families and punish those responsible for their deaths.

When these requests were not addressed by the Deim regime, Thich Quang Duc carried out his self-immolation. Following his death, Thich Quang Duc was cremated and legend has it that his heart would not burn. As a result, his heart is considered Holy and is in the custody of the Reserve Bank of Vietnam.

While Thich Quang Duc’s self-immolation has received little attention from religious scholars, it has been interpreted from both a religious and political perspective. From the prevailing point of view he has been "exclusively conceptualized as a transhistorical, purely religious agent, virtually homologous with his specifically religious forebears and ancestors." Therefore, his self-immolation is seen as a "religious suicide" and is religiously justified based on Chinese Buddhist texts written between the fifth and tenth centuries C.E.

On the otherhand it has been pointed out by both Thich Nhat Hnah and Russell McCutcheon that by contextualizing the event in 1963 Vietnam, the self-immolation can be seen as a "political act" aimed at calling attention to the injustices being perpetrated against the South Vietnamese people by a puppet government of Euro-American imperialism. In this context, Thich Nhat Hnah describes the act of self-immolation as follows:

"The press spoke then of suicide, but in the essence, it is not. It is not even a protest. What the monks said in the letters they left before burning themselves aimed only at alarming, at moving the hearts of the oppressors, and at calling the attention of the world to the suffering endured then by the Vietnamese. To burn oneself by fire is to prove that what one is saying is of the utmost importance…. The Vietnamese monk, by burning himself, says with all his strength and determination that he can endure the greatest of sufferings to protect his people…. To express will by burning oneself, therefore, is not to commit an act of destruction but to perform an act of construction, that is, to suffer and to die for the sake of one’s people. This is not suicide."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 16 2007, 07:22 AM) [snapback]406750[/snapback]</div>

With all due respect, you answered a lot of questions in this response, but not the one I actually asked. If you don't want to answer it, that's fine. But its a simple question.


Daronspicher said in post 885:

And I asked if you guys really thought God would send people to hell because you failed to witness effectively.

In other words, who holds the key to salvation? You, or God?

TJ mentioned a group of Christians found in a remote area that had become Christians based on a fragment of a Bible that had been burned ... taken by the wind, the fragment had John 3:16 on it. The group had never heard anyone preach the Gospel to them, but that fragment ... and God's testimony to them ... was enough that they were saved.

I don't know if the story is true. I do know it could be, because nothing stands in the way of God's will. Not even us.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 16 2007, 05:44 PM) [snapback]407002[/snapback]</div>

You weren't directing anything at me. You were replying to my post. I replied to your post.

And I agree with you on civility. That's why I didn't call you anything or attack your faith. However, the statement about climbing mountains does smack of ignorance ... which, as defined by Websters, means "lacking knowledge in a particular area". The tone (as much as there can be in text) smelled like condescension and intolerance. You wouldn't tolerate it about The Bible or Christianity, you should expect no less of others.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 16 2007, 05:46 PM) [snapback]407006[/snapback]</div>

As desynch has already said (and much more eloquently than I) ... NO. Is a Christian who kills an abortion doctor a representative of what it means to be a Christian? NO. And you'd be right to complain if someone tried to do it. If you wouldn't want someone to do it, you shouldn't do it, either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 16 2007, 05:46 PM) [snapback]407006[/snapback]</div>

Actually, the term is used for anyone who sets themselves on fire. And it's not exclusive to protesting Buddhist monks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 16 2007, 07:39 PM) [snapback]407081[/snapback]</div>

God inhabits the praises of His people.

Therefore, as Windstrings or Daron says, don't remember which, if man doesn't cry out the praises of God, the rocks will!

How can that be? Because He is The Creator of all that exists.

And for His pleasure they were created.

He is worthy to be praised.

When you asked me about deception, we as believers say that there is BUT ONE GOD. There is no other. So to worship any other "god" is really a deception because there are no other "gods."

That's why I repeated myself over in a number of posts about being very careful of whom you worship.
You really don't know whom you are worshipping when you worship or give homeage to man rather than to God.

Because He is Creator of everything, seen and UNSEEN.

The things that we can actually see, are only temporay and they will die. But their spirit which comes from God does not die.

Those things which we cannot see are eternal, and our spirits are one of them.

However, since the Lord God created each thing for a very specific purpose, if that purpose is circumvented, then that thing, whether man or beast, has become perverted. It is was is known as sacrilege because it no longer fulfills its purpose for which it was created.

The Lord God created the angels also. These are heavenly beings which serve the Lord God.

However, the angels that were created by God.

There was one particular beautiful angel who was created with not only gems of beauty but with pipes and musical instrument that he was also marvelous to listen to also.

God created him for his pleasure. He was not only pleasant for the eyes but he was also pleasant to the ears.

This angel would led the angelic host in beautiful music that worshipped and glorified his Creator.

This particular angel was named Lucifier, which means "light".

But when he saw how beautiful he was, and how talented his creator made him, he became full of pride.
(This is where the saying, "Pride goes before a fall," comes from.)

Lucifier said three times: "I will ascend to the highest of heavens. I will be like the Most High God. I wll be Ruler over all."

It was then that Lucifier and a third of the angels who sided with him, rose up in rebellion against God.

And so these particular angels were kicked out of the heavenly realm down to earth.

The one who was "light" is now named "Satan" which means: " devil, DECEIVER, killer, thief, destroyer." They are now called, "evil spirits, demons, and devils."

After God created the heavens and the earth he created man in His image/His likeness.
God gave the man, named Adam, dominion and authority over the entire earth.
Adam even named the animals.

When God created man, He created man to live forever.

"God has set eternity in the heart of man."

Then The Lord God said it was not good for man to be the only one of his kind and so He created woman, for she was taken out of him from his side and fashioned just for Adam. Her name was Eve.

He placed both of them, (naked for there was no shame), in the Garden of Eden, which existed somewhere along the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers, in that area of the mideast.

God had very explicitly told the man, named Adam, not to eat or touch the fruit of a particular tree. Because if he did he would die.

It was "The Tree of Knowledge, (of knowing), of Good and Evil."

And so in his anger towards God, Satan knew what God had said about eating from The Tree of Knowledge, and that if he could get Adam and Eve to disobey God by eating of the fruit from this tree, then they would die.

(The tree in itself was not poison by the penalty for disobedience or sin is death.)

The woman, was looking at the tree and saw that the fruit was beautiful to look at and pleasant to the eye.

Then Satan the devil, being in the form of a snake, said to Eve, to take and eat of the fruit from this tree.
But she replied that she was told not to do so for in the day that she should eat of the tree that she would die.

However, Satan told her, "Has God really said that? No, you won't die. If you eat of the fruit of The Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil, your eyes will be opened and you will be just like God, knowing everything both good and evil."

The Master DECEIVER that Satan is, convinced, the woman otherwise and so she took of the fruit of the tree and ate it. And then she also gave some to her husband, Adam, and he ate it too.

Immediately they hid themselves in the Garden when they heard God walking about in the Garden.
The Lord God called to Adam, "Where are you?"
He replied, "I heard you and I hid. I was afraid because I was naked."

"Who told you, you were naked? Did you eat the forbidden fruit I commanded you not to eat?"

"Yes," Adam admitted. "But it was the woman you gave me who brought me the fruit and I ate it."
Then the Lord God asked the woman, "How could you do such a thing?"

"The serpent tricked me," she replied. "That's why I ate it."

And so the disobedience/sin bought death and disease, and every sort of evil into the 'SEED', (man's children), of man, from genereation to generation all of mankind would have this for an inheritence: death, disease, sickness, and untold evil.

Sure, they didn't die right away, but eventually they did, as all of creation suffered from their sin too. So not only did man and woman suffered from the effect of this one sin, it went out into all the world and would affect mankind.

Now, there was also a Tree of Life in the same garden which had fruit on it. The fruit of The Tree of Life would give eternal life to anyone who would eat of it.

And so God in His mercy, placed the man and the woman outside of the Garden, with angels holding flaming swords to block the way to the Garden and The Tree of Life, least either the man or the woman would eat from it and live forever with a sinful nature, a body full of sickness and disease.

But not only were Adam and Eve placed out of the Garden, because Adam and Eve choose to be obedient to Satan, they also lost their authority to rule and reign over the earth and every living creature. And so now they would be servants of the devil and take on his evil nature. (Which is why man to this day can do little or no good at all in his own power.)

But God still had another plan. That was to send His Son, Jesus, in the form of a man, to buy back or REDEEM what the devil had STOLEN by DECEPTION.

The way Jesus was to REDEEM mankind was that the only thing man would have to do, is accept GOD'S WORD and BELIEVE HIS WORD, that Jesus would SAVE all mankind from his sinful nature by giving each person the opportunity to receive His power, (The Holy Spirit), and His very life into their being so that they might live with Him in the Heavenly Realm forever.

Man would then have the opportunity to have God's sinless nature place inside of Him.
God can never die. So when man's willingly receives God's Holy Spirit to come live inside of him, then that man's spirit is no longer His own spirit but GOD'S VERY OWN SPIRIT LIVING IN HIM.

That's why it says, those who have the Spirit of God living in them, DO NOT MAKE A HABIT OR PRACTICE OF SINNING.

Why? Because God's nature is sinless.

However, since we still have our old bodies in which God's spirit is residing, you wold probably say, why doesn't God give a new body to go with the new nature?

He will. It will be an incorruptible body. One that will never die; and it won't be full of diseases, or sickness.

Why do some Christians do bad things? Well, they still live in a fleshly body. So our we know what is the right thing to do but sometimes our flesh gets in the way of doing what is right. Windstrings, and Daron have said the same thing.

But THIS MUST BE DONE GOD'S WAY. Otherwise, we will continue to be DECEIVED just like Adam and Eve.

And His Way is that He sent forth His Son, Jesus, to die on the cross so that we might be redeemed/bought back to him.

Remember, that the payment for sin/disobedience is death.

Think of it this way. If you have a credit card, and you use it and don't have a job to pay it off, you are in debt.

Likewise, man had sinned, and so the only way to pay the debt would be to die. But then if he died, his spirit would still be in the same sinful state although his body died. (Spirits don't die.)

And so, since nothing unholy or sinful can reside in The Heavenly Realm, there is only one other place for that man's spirit to go: in the dark side of the spiritual realm in Hell with Satan and his demons.

Which is exactly what Satan is trying to do. He is trying to DECEIVE you into thinking that there is no God, and so if God can't do what He says He can do, then He doesn't exist.

And so if Satan plants that thought in men's mind, then men will begin to think that God doesn't exist too.

This is where DECEPTION comes in.

Satan would like for you to think that there is no such place as HELL. But there is.

Name one person who went to hell and back? Simple, Jesus.

Jesus, as the Son of God, was made flesh. He was born of the virgin Mary.

The angel Gabriel was sent to the young virgin Mary. God's message to her was that God favored her, and wanted to bless her. Saying, "You will become pregnant and have a son, and you are to name him Jesus. He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High."

But she said, "How can this be? For I am a virgin." And the angel replied, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby born to you wil be holy, and he will be call the Son of God." And Mary replied, "I am the Lord's handservant."

So Jesus was born, and grew in favor with God and man.
Since He was both fully man and GOD. Since He was born of the Holy Spirit, He was without sin, since God's nature, and very OWN SEED IS SINLESS.

So, it was God's pleasure to crushed Jesus for our iniquities. And so Jesus was crucified. His blood was shed on the cross and poured out on OUR BEHALF.

This was a one time sacrifice that would cover everyone's sins past, present and future.

When Jesus died on the cross, His blood was shed for all sin. PAST, present and future.
So He went to hell for 3 days, and rose again on the third day.
What was He doing in hell? He was telling those spirits of those people who had died before Jesus came to earth. that if they want a new spirit like His and live with Him in the Heavenly Realm forever, all they had to do was believe that He had done just that for them by His death on the cross. That the payment for their sin was paid in full when He took their place and paid the price with His own blood that they might live forever.

So Jesus took those that were made captives by Satan, because He paid the price with His very own blood, and made those captives His own.

That's why it says: "He took captive. captivity."

This is why it also says in the bible, that when Jesus returns to CLAIM His Bride, His believers, those that believed in Him and died in the body but had new spirits will rise again, and those that are remaining on the earth will rise up to meet those in the air with Him, and it will happen in a twinkling of an eye. All of us will have incorruptible bodies! And we will live with Him in the mansion of gems with streets paved of gold forever.

But God promises us that if we sin, unknowingly or we fall because we are weak in the flesh, after becoming believers, that when we come before Him and confess what it is that we have done wrong, then He will forgive us.

It is important to confess our sins to Him so that they might be covered under the blood also.

God wants our hearts. Our obedience. That's why the Bible is the most important book in all the world.
It's God's word to us, and shows us the way of salvation.

Without it, men are lost to Satan for all eternity, where there is hell fire and brimstone.

Don't be DECEIVED like Adam and Eve were. If the devil can deceive them, he still deceives men today.
Especially those that don't believe in THE ONE TRUE GOD.

There is no other "god" or "gods" There is only one, and that's the Godhead. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit.

When Jesus left His disciples after rising from the grave 3 days after his crucifixtion and death on the cross to take captivity captive, and to present Himself to the Father as a lamb which was slain for the sins of the world, Jesus told the disciples that He would not leave them as orphans.

That He would send His Spirit, The Holy Spirit to them to be their Helper for whatever they needed. They were to wait in Jerusalem and stay there until the Holy Spirit came.

The Holy Spirit came upon them, and filled them with God's very own Spirit! One of power, able to work mighty miracles; and to live a life by His very own power.

They went about doing good works, and healing those with diseases, and sicknesses, and those oppressed and filled with evil spirits.

So if you see a lot of evil taking place by people, you know what manner of "spirit" they are.

That's why we say, and you shall know them by their fruit.

But a reminder, don't be DECEIVED like Adam and Eve were, it must be God's way.

Otherwise, if it YOUR way, it will lead to an afterlife in hell, because you won't have God's nature residing in you.

It's not what I say, it's what God says.

God is a jealous God and He will have no other "god" before Him.

He is very desirous of His Creation, especially man.

Man was created for fellowship with God; just as woman was created for the man.

God wants reconcillation with man. God made for man a way back to Him where there seemed to be no way back to Him.

Now is the time to ask God for forgiveness of your sins, and to believe that what Jesus did on the cross, dying for your sins, will give you eternal life, and the power of the Holy Spirit to help you be free and live a godly life that God has called you to.

BUT ONLY YOU can make that decision for yourself.

God will not make you do anything. He gives you a choice.

Well, God is not a man that He will lie.

Once He has spoken His word, no matter what, no matter when, God never goes back, ever on His word.

Otherwise, He would not be God.

That's why He made the plan for Christ to die on the cross that He did, because Jesus fulfilled every requirement set forth in Judaical law.

Yes, we are called to go into all the world and be a witness both in word and in deed to the Lord Jesus Christ.

And yes, we will be held accountable for rightly dividing the word of truth because someone's salvation could be at hand.

The Lord tells us very explicitly in at the end of the Book of Revelation what type of punishment will await those that add to or take away from His words. He means business.

That's why the bible says that MANY OF YOU SHOULD NOT BE TEACHERS OF THE WORD, for they will beholden to a higher law.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Word will never pass away."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 16 2007, 06:39 PM) [snapback]407081[/snapback]</div>

I know your not asking me and I know I already commented a bit.. but if its not being rude I would like to throw one more comment since you reworded it if I may.

I personally feel that first of all our witnessing must be inspired of God in order to be speaking for God.
Simply quoteing mindless scripture without any guidance from the Lord is not witnessing in my opinion and often "hurts" more than it helps, nor is sharing your testimony if the timing is wrong and thats not what God is asking you to do.... so in these cases or errors, IMO, God would not hold the listener accountable as his heart was not prepared for what he heard "since is was not from God".

No man comes to the Father except the spirit draw him and when he does, he often speaks to someone to be a messinger and "witness" or speak.

God has ways of speaking above and beyond man, but if man does not obey and speak or if he does a poor job of it, only God knows if the listener got the message or not.... if he did, then he is accountable for what he heard.

If he didn't understand nor get the message, then it has not been delivered yet.

Jonah was late in delivering the message and God still delivered and saved.

The harder question I see here is what happens to people that die that never heard yet were born in sin?

I don't know for sure.

The people before the law had the same issue.

The bible does teach that the hearer of the law then becomes accountable for what he knows.

Even though God chooses man to deliver many of his message, I don't think the "means" by which a message was delivered is that important, the real question is.. "was the message delivered and was there understanding on behalf of the hearer?

Keep in mind quite possibly the reason God uses man is because the unbeliever and sinner cannot hear Gods voice, unless it comes from a man.. then hopefully his heart will be pricked.

I've spoken messages and have been amazed at what different people heard from the same message.

I have also spoke or ministered in song and thought I did a really wonderful job and no one was touched.

Yet other times I thought I was pathetic and was embarrassed that it was so bad and people would come up to me afterwards right and left and tell me how blessed they were!

That was God's way of showing me it wasn't about me or how good I thought I could deliver the message or song.. its what he does with it from point A "the sender" to point B.. "the hearer".

Only God can make it stick and reveal the scriptures and open the heart to his secrets.

You can speak a mystery of God or a simple plea for salvation and some will be powerfully touched while others are offended and still others are neutral and they weren't paying attention.

The other half of this equation is in the heart of the listener.

I could reword the question and ask you.. do you think the "listener" has the key to salvation, or is it God that has already chosen whether they will hear and respond or not?....who knows?.. I'm certainly not qualified to guess the timing of God in mens hearts!

I think we are all responsible for what God gives us to do and though the may spare and have mercy on the person that never got the message because we were disobedient not to give it, he will provide another way for the listener in most cases.. but thats really up to God how he does it or when the next window will be that they are a receptive listener.

After all of that.. I really don't feel I answered the question adequatly either... its hard to know what a sovereign God will do, but we know He is motivated by Faith and love and is moved by the feelings of our infirmaties.

God is patient and kind and not willing that any should perish... there is never a "one time shot" or you go to hell. God speaks over and over and over trying to reach the children he loves that are lost.

As the shepherd who leaves the 99 to go look for the one... so the hounds of heaven pursue us with his love trying to draw us in.

Love is what most of us need to find God.... its the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.... the wrath and judgement is reserved for later against those who work so hard to destroy the kingdom and never surrender to the love of God.

Now you may ask me... will God really judge those he loves if they never get it?
If thats what your really asking.. I have to answer adamantly "yes"... he has no choice.
Without an atonement for sins, he promised the soul that sins shall surely die.

He has done it in the past with the flood of noah, sodom and gomorrah, the 450 false prophets in Elijahs time, the armies of pharoh, the armies of the philistines etc etc etc
, there is no reason any "right mind" would think he would not do it again!

God is a loving God, but there is a blood trail to show the wrath of God also.
Just because someone loves you, does not mean you can spit on them and curse them without a payback.. especially when they are the God of the Universe.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 16 2007, 06:39 PM) [snapback]407081[/snapback]</div>

I believe that fshagan, yet I also consider other scriptures.
Seems concerning ourselves we are accountable for our own choices, I really want to say I don't think others are dependant upon our choices.
But I see so many lives that are destroyed because of bad choice made from clergy and those who abuse thier position.... the people they affect often never recover.

(2 Chr 7:12 NKJV) Then the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said to him: "I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice.
(2 Chr 7:13 NKJV) "When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people,
(2 Chr 7:14 NKJV) "if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

God said his word would not return void.. It hard to say what really happens from the time the word is given to the time it returns with a return of goodness.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 16 2007, 08:16 PM) [snapback]407101[/snapback]</div>

No, immolation is defined as making one's self a sacrifice.

Suicide is something totally different, it's the act of killing one's self intentionally.

So when I see the monks setting themselves on fire, it tells me that unless they were doing it to sacrifice themselves to a god, (Buddha in this case, since they are Buddhist monks), which they were not immolating themselves then for Buddha, it's still not immolation.

Besides, I thought that Buddhism doesn't believe in killiing any living creature, including themselves.
If they did, then by links which were posted earlier about Buddhism, and like I said, I read them all,
it very explicitly says that they do not go around killing any living creature.

So, I thought that if they were not immolating themselves for Buddha then, they were committing sucide.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 16 2007, 07:16 PM) [snapback]407101[/snapback]</div>

Sorry Proco.. I didn't mean it that way... I was just recalling some stories I've heard on missionary trips and stories of people doing such things.. usually in the name of christianity trying to prove to God how they were willling to suffer like Christ... sorry to say.. very bad doctrine.
Suffering just to suffer accomplishes nothing but waste, suffering in the act of performing Gods will for good is different and is acceptable.

James 2:24 http://www.carm.org/kjv/James/James_2.htm#Ye

Tells us that works do work hand in hand with faith but they must be motivated out of faith and not just works.

Before the law.. this is more on the lines of how men was judged.. but when it comes to salvation, Jesus has done the work to remove sin.. something man could not do since he was already guilty of it.

(James 2:20 NKJV) But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
(James 2:21 NKJV) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(James 2:22 NKJV) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
(James 2:23 NKJV) And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
(James 2:24 NKJV) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

To simplify this whole thing that can get so confusing.. it all about a passion, love and relationship for the Lord.

Some serve God and don't know him. I see no where that there is any profit in those situations.. there must be relationship.