Down to the Rapture

Mark you are presenting questions that have no answer. If one has faith, why must you ask that they justify it to you?

 

Since they are the ones making such claims.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Mar 14 2007, 10:33 PM) [snapback]405826[/snapback]</div>

Why can't you just let them believe what they will? Demanding an answer from them for their belief is just as bad as their demand that you convert. Neither are appropriate, really.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 14 2007, 09:17 PM) [snapback]405812[/snapback]</div>

That was brilliant!!!.. seriously.....

hence the struggle with understanding faith which is based on love... none of it fits logic, nor does it have an answer.

Many many things we do from habit, vices, loves and infatuations.... none of it makes sense with rational and logic, yet it powers the world.... greed doesn't make sense?

Thanks for such an enlightening statement Desynch... this gives me hope!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Mar 14 2007, 07:25 AM) [snapback]405364[/snapback]</div>

Do you really think people's salvation depends on what other people say to them?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 14 2007, 10:36 PM) [snapback]405863[/snapback]</div>

God is the one that gives the increase, but yes.. God uses the foolishness of men to preach the gospel.

(1 Cor 1:18 NKJV) For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(1 Cor 1:19 NKJV) For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
(1 Cor 1:20 NKJV) Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
(1 Cor 1:21 NKJV) For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

What's your take on who has committed the biggest sin..... a Christian who converts to Islam? Or a Christian gone atheist? How about a Christian gone polytheist?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 14 2007, 11:45 PM) [snapback]405832[/snapback]</div>

Nope. If I never challenged the beliefs of my former Christian friend, he would not be an atheist/agnostic rationalist rather than the fundie nutcase he used to be.

In the meantime, why don't you let Muslims praise Mohammed PBUH?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 13 2007, 03:41 AM) [snapback]404730[/snapback]</div>

Mark, it is called faith in God.

It means that I have complete trust and confidence.
Complete trust and confidence in the Lord that He not only hears my prayers but He answers them too.

I can only speak from my own experience. I can only tell you what I know to be true about the prayers that I have prayed.

I have seen the Lord, God Almighty work in many ways, especially answer to prayer. That's why I know in Whom I believe, in Him.

I can tell you about the very specific prayers I have prayed, and I can tell you very specific things that have taken place in my place and in the lives of the people for whom I pray.

But then, you would say, "What is that? Prove it."

The only thing that I can say to you is that my prayers have been answered so many different times in so many different ways, that is all the proof I need.

But why don't you ask TJ and see whether or not he thinks God's hand was with him that particular night?

Or are you afraid to ask because of what he might say?

And if he says yes, what will you SAY TO HIM THEN? That no, God wasn't with him, it was just a fluke?

As a believer, I prayed for his health, and protection, and that God would bless TJ.

I know that TJ said he is suffering much pain because he said so in a previous post, and I feel for him.

When I pray, I trust that the Lord will put the right people in TJ's life to help minister to his health, and to all other needs that he has.

But I especially pray that wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and discernment by those helping to care for him would be made manifest and work according to God's will and purpose for him.

I know that the Heavenly Father loves TJ and only wants the very best for him. So because I ask, and I ask expectingly.

I, as a child of God, can come boldly before the throne and make my requests known that I might find grace in time of need.

Grace, being God's unmerited favor towards me. I can always go before the Heavenly Father on behalf of others.

There is a story in the bible about Jesus visiting a home. Word got out that Jesus could heal the sick. There were several men who had a friend who was paralyzed and couldn't walk, but they knew that Jesus was in their town and that He healed all the diseased and sick people.

The men pick up their friend on his cot and went to the house where Jesus was visiting. There crowd was so large that they couldn't get through the door to take their friend in.

So they went on top of the house, and took the roof apart and lowered the man down in front of Jesus.
Jesus said to him, to rise up and walk. Because these men care enough to do that for him, Jesus care enough to heal him.

And so I stand in faith on behalf of TJ. For not only his health, but also for blessings upon his family. because those folks are the dearest to him.

Out of a person's struggles in life, whether they be health or emotional, God uses those struggles so that a person such as TJ, will be able to comfort others that are facing the same difficulties and trials that he has been through or is going through himself.

A lot of times we learn so much from it; and it provides an opportunity to serve one another.

I have no doubt in my mind that TJ was right where God wanted him to be all along.

Do you know what it means to bless a person? It means to speak "OUT" good things about a person.
Do you know what it means to curse a person? It means to speak "EVIL" things about a person.

I choose to bless TJ.

A spring overflowing with water cannot gush forth both sweet and bitter waters.

It will either be the one or the other.

It is the same way with a person's mouth.

The bible clearly says, "A person will eat the fruit, (words), of his mouth."

They go deep down inside a person and take root, and so whatever the seed, (word), is planted deep inside a person will eventually bear fruit.

There is a saying, "What you sow, you reap, and more so than you sow."

It is not only true when a farmer plants a seed, he doesn't expect to get just the seed back at harvest time. He expects a harvest 100 times over.

This same principle works in the spirit realm also.

You have a belief, (faith): that you have no belief (faith), in God or any god. That's your choice.

But as Jesus would say to the woman who was healed: "May it be done according to your faith." She believed that Jesus could heal her and so she was healed.

You don't believe, so for you it will be impossible, because you have said so.

The bible says that those who come to God must believe that He is (God.)

I, on the other hand, do believe. Not in myself, but in my God, who is mighty and able to answer prayer.

He also hears the cries of His children. I am one of His many children. And so for me, I can expect my Heavenly Father to answer my prayers, according to His will and purpose.

However, I am not God, and so I do not know of other people who have problems other than those that I am in contact with. Now if God wants me to pray/intercede for someone specifically, He usually lets me know.

But I can tell you one thing, that I pray for those that I do know; whether they are family, or co-workers, or friends, or acquaintences, or even strangers who need a word of encouragement and comfort.

The bible says: "Taste the Lord and see that He is good."
In other words, come to Him and talk to Him. He will answer you and He wants to bless you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Mar 14 2007, 11:54 PM) [snapback]405874[/snapback]</div>

Sure, they can do that. No one ever said Muslims aren't allowed to worship the rapist Mohammad.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Mar 14 2007, 11:54 PM) [snapback]405874[/snapback]</div>

The person who comitted the biggest was Judas.
God said it would have been better if he had never been born.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 14 2007, 11:42 PM) [snapback]405865[/snapback]</div>

The Lord use men that were very ordinary in their day and time.
He used simple people to confound the wise.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 15 2007, 02:19 AM) [snapback]405903[/snapback]</div>

Well. Fast answer first. loveit, (note, not 'loveitoomuch'), thanks for wanting to bless me, and all the (what seems to be, to me at least, ) a honest capitulation of you feelings.

Now, to answer some points in length.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 15 2007, 02:19 AM) [snapback]405903[/snapback]</div>

Was God with me that night? He is with me always. If I was to be hit by the bullet, He would still be with me. I think that something pushed me out of the way of the bullet. It hit two inches away from my head in the wall behind me; close enough for GSR to land on my face, so they tell me. Now, as to what pushed me out of the way. Could have been I noticed his hand twitch on the trigger a split second before he fired, and my body reacted to it quickly, without my active will; could be that a 'angel' pushed me out of the way...one can't be so sure as to say why. Could have been dumb luck. My feet do hurt, and I mean, HURT all the time due to arthritis. Right now, just sitting here, I have pain. When I stand for a long time, in one place, I tend to have to move back and forth on my feet, or they really bother me. I might have just been moving at that moment, and stumbled, and fell over. Again, I was there, and am not sure what really happened.

I don't think it was a fluke what happened. I am a firm believer in events happening for a reason. If my being flip about my arthritis, and the pain in my hands and feet, or my laughter in the face of cancer can cause someone to have strength, then it was all worth it, and I would suffer it again. I do believe, that we are all here to learn from one another, and that includes those who we disagree with.
This man, whom I will call 'Fred' (not his real name), we have since talked in the hospital several times now. He knows I am a Preacher, and he was really shocked that I was so nice to him, after he shot at me, and tells me that he did not believe in God (hated Him, in fact), until he shot me. Seems that now, he believes, because God sparred my life. So today, er, WEDNESDAY, (sorry), well, anyway, in his hospital room, he recited the sinners prayer, and became Born Again.

I will say, that I feel as if that is his choice, fine. Great. But I don't get any extra 'gold stars' or a bonus or anything for him doing that. Fred has chosen for himself, and that is all I ask of anyone. TO make the choice yourself. Either way.

Fred tells me that his dad was a Preacher, and that is why he hated God. Because he saw up close how corrupt religion can be.

But when he saw me move out of the way of the shot, and how I forgave him, and the way I speak and dress...well, it changed his mind.

Now, again, this is not to say that I had anything to do with it. BUT, it does support how I feel that things happen for a reason; how everything is connected in this universe.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 15 2007, 02:19 AM) [snapback]405903[/snapback]</div>

To which, I can agree. So, weird as it may be to loveit, we agree on something.

Once, when I was at a POPEYES, there were these two people ahead of me, who barely spoke English. They were speaking Creole, and I speak some of that, so I heard that they thought the coupon they had would pay for the whole meal, and when it did not, the were short money. So I paid for the meal. Did not know them. They thanked me over and over.

The manager saw me do that, and bought my meal for me. I did not ask for it, nor did I expect that. I just treated someone as I wanted to be treated, and I was right where God wanted me to be, at that moment.

The one thing that I have said, time and time again, is that all I really want, is to have people share in the message of Christ, which is to Love one another, and to be Good to one another. I don't care if you believe in Christ; but it's hard to deny His simple message.

What confounds me, is when the conservative religious right says what I do is not of God, because I choose to interpret God and His message of Love, well, differently then they do. So what if I do? There are many rooms in my Fathers House, as the saying goes. Shirley there is room for all of us, even if we don't agree.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 14 2007, 07:17 PM) [snapback]405812[/snapback]</div>

I don't think so. I think my questions DO have answers, pretty obvious ones to a rational mind. I even suggest what I think a rational answer is when I pose them. But they're not answers some are willing to accept because to do so would require dismantling a belief. So rather than modify a belief you say you have "faith". Well, "faith" as the religious employ it is in my book an intellectual copout, a refusal to face facts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 14 2007, 07:17 PM) [snapback]405812[/snapback]</div>

I'm the one being exhorted to make myself to believe what the evangelist believes. If you really and truly want me to believe the same thing you do, you damn well better give me sound reasons for doing so because I ain't gonna follow something that strikes me as obvious nonsense on mere "faith." It's imprudent.

Mark

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Mar 14 2007, 12:25 PM) [snapback]405364[/snapback]</div>

I think ALAN has his ways, and they seem to alienate more people then not. But, to each his own...However.
How is my having people 'comfortable' with me and (what I consider CHRISTS message, not mine), a bad thing?

A greater preacher then I, Joel Osteen, well, a lot of conservative Christians don't like his message, and yet, he pastors one of the largest (and growing) churches in this country...is his message not having much of an impact then?

The real bottom line, as you put it, is that not a lot of us know it all, and aren't even close, so why try to tell anyone else what to do with their life?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 15 2007, 05:28 AM) [snapback]405947[/snapback]</div>

And you should not follow anything you don't want to. Really.
Freedom of Religion means Freedom from Religion as well.
I can't convince you, nor would I want to, that what I think is God is hogwash to you. I can, however, say that I was born deaf in the left ear. I don't have the proper bones in my inner ear to hear, so I am told. About 11 years ago, I asked simply, 'It sure would be nice to hear in that ear', and just like that, bang, I could hear.

No kidding, I jive you not. And I had tests done, blind sound tests where I could not see what the tester was doing, had examinations, and all, and no bones are there still, yet, I can hear.

To me, that is a miracle. To others, a freak of nature. To what it means to you, is up to you. But I know that I can hear perfectly now, and I could not before I asked that simple question.

And no, I can not answer, if it was God that cured me, why me? Why not someone else? I really don't know.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 14 2007, 01:44 PM) [snapback]405420[/snapback]</div>

Nope.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Mar 14 2007, 02:34 PM) [snapback]405464[/snapback]</div>

Thanks! I would rather hang out with folks who are not perfect, like me, then ones who are perfect.

Since, well, they don't exist and all...hard to hang with people who don't exist. I have yet to meet the perfect person.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 14 2007, 05:39 PM) [snapback]405618[/snapback]</div>

Mark, I can't answer these questions, because I simply don't know why I live right now, and why he missed. I may believe it was for a purpose, but I am not 100% sure why.

Shucks, why didn't I get shot, when in the long run, my dealings with my pain, and my cancer, would be over then? Sort of sounds flip, I know...but man, if I look at from that POV, why, if God loves me, and wants the best for me, didn't I just get shot and die right there and then?

I would suppose, as I have said earlier, to continue in some way, to be an example of what perhaps a 'Christian' should be. But that sounds so arrogant, that it bugs me to type it out.

Mark, while you may not believe in God, or Christ, or whatever, I believe that you are here for a purpose as much as I am. I will say again, for the record, I don't care if you, or anyone, believes. Not my place.

I do care that you have a good life, and that if I can change your view, that not all of us who follow Christ are nuts, or think you are nuts, then yeah! The planet may be one small step towards a brotherly love kind of thing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 14 2007, 09:19 PM) [snapback]405903[/snapback]</div>

First of all, Loveit, I have to thank you again for your consistent courtesy, and caring concern. Your posts are the most "christ" like insofar as the concept of Christ embodies one who expresses love even toward his adversaries. Sure as you are of your being right, you manage to do it without condescension. I (and I'm sure others) appreciate it.

I quoted TJ in my post specifically so he could, if he chose, answer for himself - and he has. And I simply disagree. I don't believe everything happens "for a reason", and I'd be profoundly disappointed if scientific evidence came out that PROVED supernatural intervention occurs (I'd be forced to change my belief, of course, if that happened, but I WOULD do it. Facts are facts whether I like 'em or not).

But at the moment, all the evidence I'm aware of, and I've seen a lot and read a lot, indicates an undirected universe.

Science HAS proved that the human mind is hardwired to superimpose patterns onto everything it senses, probably as an evolutionary enhancement to survival. Pattern recognition permits advance warning of possible danger, and we can recognize some pretty complicated, non-intuitive patterns without any conscious effort. But this same capability has us seeing patterns where there aren't any, too.

Take the lottery. That game WILL have a winner. It's very design guarantees a winner. No lottery has yet failed to have a winner. Having a winner is as mathematically certain as sunrise. Would we say that "god" made sure there was a winner? No - the architecture of the game guarantees a winner.

But look at it from the winner's perspective. The person who wins is at that moment one out of a billion. The odds of someone winning are 1 to 1; the odds of that person winning are a billion to 1. So many winners (who believe in "god") believe "god" made them win.

In a game where having a winner is mathematically certain, does it make sense to think "god" is picking the winners? To my mind, NO, in capital letters.

But not to every mind. So we disagree.

The reason I'd be disappointed if it were ever discovered that universe is directed is that it would kill, once and for all, the concept of free will. In a directed universe, free will is impossible. My personal nature demands a high level of autonomy - I chafe bitterly when I don't feel I'm the master of my own fate. I've never been in the military, for example, because the level of enforced subordination is more than I could tolerate. I'd be locked in the brig ten minutes after enlistment for insubordination, and thrown out dishonorably the next day for unrepentant refusal to capitulate, if I ever got drafted (at 50 plus I'm probably safe from that event). Having the ability to decide my own course is as necessary to my psyche as air to breathe. Which is why the evangelists' exhortations to "give myself to the lord's command and OBEY" hit my ear as an affront, not as an invitation. "Obedience" just isn't part of who I am - it never was, nor will it ever be.

So, again, we disagree. And, hopefully, we can discuss the points of disagreement and learn from each other, which I think we're doing.

Mark

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 15 2007, 06:20 AM) [snapback]405956[/snapback]</div>

Mark, I would rather disagree with someone I respect, then agree with someone I despise.

And yeah, loveit is changing my view...now if just knew his/her name....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Mar 14 2007, 10:54 PM) [snapback]405874[/snapback]</div>

I never see Christian convert away... only those that have been exposed to mans religion.

The definition of "knowing" Christ is attached to being a christian... but many churches not only do not know and practice that, they openly have perversion in the seat of their authorities.... and wonder why the world is confused.

 

See video in the link:
http://tinyurl.com/create.php

And desynch.... if you want to be internally consistent, then don't complain about their beliefs.

 

And if I want to be internally correct... no one out here as asked me to give any input into thier lives so I guess I shouldn't see it as unexpected that my words are unwelcomed.

Sorry for being so strong at times.. for that I am definately guilty of.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 15 2007, 04:20 AM) [snapback]405956[/snapback]</div>

Mark, it is very hard for some people to walk by "faith", meaning believing in something you don't see.

Humor me for a moment please?

If you have a bible handy, go into Genesis, first book of the bible, and read about Abraham, (Abram) and how God calls him to leave everything behind and to go "to a land he knew not where".

Now mind you, Abraham was 75 years old before he starting walking with God. (By that we mean, by doing just what God asked him to do.) Yes, God spoke to Abraham; and Abraham spoke to God. As a matter of fact, God calls Abraham His friend.

The Lord blessed Abraham in many mighty ways. By our standards today, he would be considered a very wealthy man; more than likely a millionaire. (Lots of animals, slaves, relatives, ect.)

But with all the wealth that he had accumulated, he told the Lord that he had no children to leave his inheirtance to.

So the Lord promised him an heir of his own body even though his body was good "as dead" to give life; and more so for his wife Sari, (Sarah.)

They waited more years. But finally, when the Lord Himself appeared as an angel in the form of a man to the couple, the Lord said to them that a year from then they would have a son.

Sure enough, they did. He was named Isaac which means laughter, because his mom, Sarah laughed at the idea of becoming a mother after the age of 70 something and Abraham was about 90 something.

But there are other miracles too.

Because of all the stuff that happened with Sarah and her handmaiden, Haggar, whom slept with Abraham, (custom in those days),and had a son Ishmael by him, that is why the Muslims are still fighting with the Jews over Israel, because of the blessing.

The blessing goes to the first born. But enough though Ismael was born of Abraham's seed, he was born of the slave woman; and not of Sarah.

But Isaac would be the son through whom God had promised Abraham blessing. That their descendants would be a numerous as the grains of sand or stars in the sky.

Not Ishmael, but Isaac.

The testimony and fact is that is why there is war in the Mideast today. Now that's something you can see.

Now you know why the Muslims will die to take the land of Israel.