Down to the Rapture

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 12 2007, 08:35 PM) [snapback]404446[/snapback]</div>

70
times
70
You have to stay here, until you learn why you are here. You have to learn, I think, that you are often seen as an attacking buffoon, by those you wish to convert. I don't say that out of anger; I say it out of love.

You and I, we both talk about Christ, and why He was sent here. But from what I gather, at least here, is I don't come across as attacking people who don't believe. If I am wrong, they may feel free to tell me.
I want everyone to know Christ, and His message of Love. I am not hiding that. I am, however, not going to demand that people accept my beliefs as theirs. Nor will I tell them they are wrong. I won't call them unitelagent, or say they are blind, or stupid, or whatever, if they don't want to believe.
I will engage them, if they want, and I will, to the best of my ability, treat others as I would like to be treated.

I will behave, and I will use the spellcheck. I may anger some, so it seems, but I will apologise.

When you have learned these things, (and I truly believe that is the reason you are here), when you have learned humility, when you have learned of God's love, when you have learned that although the woods are thick, there is more then one path out of them. Not all will be easy, nor will all the paths be clearly marked. But there is more then one path to get to Christ; it's not always the same for each person; when you have learned these things, then you will be released from this thread.

Christ is The One, I do believe that. But He is not The One for all, and that is Okay.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 13 2007, 04:59 AM) [snapback]404725[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Mark. Again, I did not say that to brag. It is just a part of what I, as a Preacher, and a Human, do. I don't get paid, for being a Preacher, or for working the hot line. It's what I call, 'my call', and that is why I do it.

I like you Mark, and a lot of people here. When I am at home, working the night away, answering the phone; when I have down time, I check in here. I enjoy Fred's. And frankly, it gives me a place to let off steam.

I hope that when I speak about God, and His message, I don't 'bug' you. It is not my intent.

I will admit, I love speaking about Christ, but I don't want to seem like I am beating anyone up with it. Christ, to me, was a wonderful human, as well as God, and had a very radical outlook. Be kind to one another; be good to one another.

I try to do that every day. Some days, easier then others...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 13 2007, 12:09 AM) [snapback]404726[/snapback]</div>

Believe me, TJ, and I think some others will confirm this, yours is one of the sensible voices in these threads. While I myself have become fairly convinced that "god" is only an artifact of human intellect and the as yet unresolved phenomenon of self-consciousness, and so disbelieve many things that you do believe, we can at least discuss the areas of disagreement rationally, and recognize that disagreement is NOT a personal attack, but merely a disjunction of ideas. In none of your posts have I ever felt you were "forcing" a point of view into an unwilling respondent, and with rare exception you have been consistently courteous. More so than me - I am very hostile toward religious ideas, and that hostility boils over into biting sarcasm that sometimes crosses the line between attacking an idea and attacking the person having the idea. I try to be careful but sometimes my emotion carries me away just like it does everyone else from time to time. But as we both know, giving in to such temptation only throws acid on the discussion, corroding any chance of actually communicating. Yours are among the least corrosive, and thus instructive, as well as always enjoyable to read posts in these threads. I look forward to more (even as I wince at an idea I disagree with, as I'm sure you wince at things I say - but then, that's WHY we have dialogue).

Mark

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 13 2007, 05:41 AM) [snapback]404730[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Mark.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 13 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]404730[/snapback]</div>

Funny, though, even though I don't share TJs beliefs, he never makes me wince. (That time he got mad, I winced a bit, but just because I was concerned about him.)

So Mark, I second what you've just said. Thank you yet again for your words (spelling and syntax in check!)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 12 2007, 11:48 PM) [snapback]404720[/snapback]</div>

Hey! No fair using a Bible verse that actually applies to the context PLUS adding a personal testimony that reinforces the verse!

Glad it worked out OK with the guy. I think we can thank God you were there, and that he was a bad shot!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 13 2007, 04:54 PM) [snapback]404985[/snapback]</div>

Well, thank you! I notice that ALAN and loveittoomuch are not responding any more t this thread. SO, one can guess that they are done here; have they won? Does anyone win?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 14 2007, 01:12 AM) [snapback]405167[/snapback]</div>

The cops that were there, (standing there, with guns slightly drawn, I might add), said that it seemed like someone was watching out for me; as if I was pushed out of the way be some force. One said they felt a wind blow me down (I said, 'Are you sure it was not me, just breaking wind?')

The guy contacted me today. He apologized for shooting at me. I forgave him. No harm done.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 14 2007, 12:57 AM) [snapback]405234[/snapback]</div>

No one has posed any questions that I felt I should step in for... seems like you guys are doing just fine.
I've posted enough lately and I'm sure many are tired of hearing from me.........and it will be good to back out for a while and see if the thread breeds new life or whether everybody only came for a dog fight.

But even on the other thread I'm active in about Hell... we took your lead TJ and tried to declare a wiping of the slate to start over respecting each other, and each others post as sincere.

That thread too has almost died since.

Of course some will post nevertheless that are just trying to rattle cages and stir the mud for fun anyway.

But sad to say... I think its like to soap operas and the news...... everyone says the hate bad news, of murder, scandals, and general offenses against humanity.... also the soap operas..... everyone says... they would hate for the lying, cheating and bed hopping to happen in thier own family like it does in the operas we feed on everyday.... but when it comes right down to it... people are facinated with and intrigued at fighting and mudslinging "LOL!, look at Jerry Springer!", and they love to see people say bold rash statements about subjects they never had the words nor the guts to say on thier own.

It will be up to the participants as to whether they want true dialouge to happen... but as for me, I'm coasting for now..... if good discussion wants to arise, thats good..... but if you go backwards and review the posts.... not much of that has happened for a while.

The reason this thread has broken records for length, is because of its highly contraversial nature.... unfortunatley, thats not a good thing.. just a matter of observation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 14 2007, 02:57 AM) [snapback]405234[/snapback]</div>

Nope, I don't think so. In this case, though, they probably didn't know what to do with a bible quote that was actually germaine to the topic AND accompanying thoughtful response.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 14 2007, 02:57 AM) [snapback]405234[/snapback]</div>

:lol:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 14 2007, 02:57 AM) [snapback]405234[/snapback]</div>

Once again, TJ, you seem like a marvelous person. Glad you're okay.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 14 2007, 01:57 AM) [snapback]405234[/snapback]</div>

TJ, I want you to know that I have been praying for your health, and that God would bless you.

I am glad that you were protected by the Lord.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 13 2007, 03:09 AM) [snapback]404726[/snapback]</div>

Do you ever wonder if the Jesus you tell about is the Jesus of the Bible. Same characteristics, same bottom line, etc...

Are you loving people... straight to hell? If the ship is sinking, would you tell people they better get in the life boat or they'll die in a sinking ship, or would you just tell them there are lifeboats if anyone would be more comfortable in a smaller seat for the next couple hours?

Do you ever end up at the bottom line with anyone and give them the Biblical Jesus who can save them from the punishment of the sin in their life?

Everyone is 'comfortable' with you and your message. That should be a signpost that the message is not having much of an impact.

I think windstrings gives it more straight up and true to the point. If people get uncomfortable with that, maybe they'll move to the lifeboat.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Mar 14 2007, 10:25 AM) [snapback]405364[/snapback]</div>

Fear is not a healthy motivator.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Mar 14 2007, 09:25 AM) [snapback]405364[/snapback]</div>

I just want to reinterate... "anger" is not a sin..... as long as you don't harbor it and let it take you down its road to bitterness.



Jesus got angry.. so does the Father.....



Its important to know what spirit you are of when you get angry.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 14 2007, 12:44 PM) [snapback]405420[/snapback]</div>

I agree. I am more receptive to a message of compassion and forgiveness than I am to acting in compliance and conformance based solely on fear. How can anyone be a good person if they operate based on the notion of fear? I do believe that if fear ran my life I would be paralyzed. And, if I waited for God to instruct me to engage in my good deeds (as Windstrings had implied is necessary) I would get nothing done as I've never heard Him speak to me.

So, if it came down to it, I would camp with TJ, Fshagan and the like. It seems that's were I would be most welcome based on the fact that I'm far from perfect and if I happen to trip up and do something that's not entirely appropriate for the faith, I do believe that I'd be forgiven so long as it wasn't performed with malicious intent. It's interesting to note that a lot of other posters have recognized and commended the good deeds of TJ in the suicide incident while Windstrings and Loveit haven't even acknowledged the act. I guess if you don't conform to their message of faith, you aren't worth a mention of commendation no matter the magnitude of you're loving and giving act. I asked of them before in what manner these two conduct their lives that makes them so much more worthy of God's love other than their simple belief in him and received no replies. TJ, at least you're engaging your life for the betterment of others in what appears to be a very unselfish manner. To be very frank, I'm not sure I could've stood in your shoes and continued to help someone in need when a threat on my life was clearly in play.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Mar 14 2007, 12:34 PM) [snapback]405464[/snapback]</div>

I did say that I was praying for him earlier this past week, and I am glad that the Lord protected him while in the line of fire.

 

My apologies, Loveit.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Mar 14 2007, 11:34 AM) [snapback]405464[/snapback]</div>

God is not the author of fear... although it has been a motivating factor that drove people to God.. once they found him, they would never go back,



But fear alone doesn't go far.. as soon as whatever is driving the fear is removed.. if the heart has not been changed, you will get the hypocritical lifestyle.



But "conviction" on the other hand.. is from God... often confused.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Mar 14 2007, 01:08 PM) [snapback]405502[/snapback]</div>

Apology accepted. Thank you!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 14 2007, 01:31 PM) [snapback]405533[/snapback]</div>

You are right Windstrings.

God never condemns, but the Holy Spirit will always convict one when not in line with God's edicts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 14 2007, 12:35 PM) [snapback]405534[/snapback]</div>

I suppose the confusing thing is sometimes people are indeed afraid of God.. but it needs to be realized that God is not the author of it.



If you put your foot down and get stern with both of your kids, one may run from you in fear, while the other runs to you.



The one running from you is fearful because he knows hes wrong and doesn't want punishment, the other is "convicted" and realized his wrong and runs to you to re-establish relationship as he can't stand it when your mad at him!



We harbor the ingredients in our heart the determines which.

 

The other day when I was posting to Rufaro, and thinking about many things pertaining to the end times, it was like I saw the logos in a different way.

When "the man of lawlessness" is revealed, and according to scripture he is at work although we cannot see him bodily, you can just look around at the world today and see the destruction that is actually taking place because of man's sinful nature.

As I said before, there is much evil transpiring in the world today.

The other thing is, it is like the frog who sits in a pan of water on the stove. Then the stove is turn on so that the pan heats up, and then the frog is cooked alive and doesn't even realized what has taken place.

And so, people are already being deceived by it now, totally and completely.

Only when they face mortality will they even see into the spirit realm by then it will be too late.

It is understood why the bible says that those who follow after the Holy Spirit do not make a practice of sinning. So the body of believers must stay alert, and make a practice of doing what's right by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But yet I wondered how the end is to approach? So the word APOSTASCY came to mind. The falling away of the church from God's own words.

That is more than likely one of the ways of how the restrainer will be removed before the "man of lawlessness" can be revealed.

There will be many that will fall away from God's very own word.

I wonder if every person who believes Jesus that is still on the face of the earth at that time will be removed?

Or if there just won't be any believers left because .... of the evil one?

I beginning to see another picture, I guess this is where those that don't worship the evil will face death.

I just pray that those who are remaining will be faithful to the very end.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 13 2007, 11:57 PM) [snapback]405234[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 14 2007, 08:12 AM) [snapback]405352[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 14 2007, 10:58 AM) [snapback]405490[/snapback]</div>

This tendency to attribute a perfectly natural (and VERY fortunate) example of botched marksmanship to deliberate, supernatural intervention raises some questions:

First, what is it about TJ that “god†deemed intervention in his behalf worthwhile, but the six year old child killed in gang crossfire in Oakland a few days ago was left to suffer nature’s natural course without “god’s†intervention? There’s no human scale of justice I’m aware of that would legitimately rank one life as having more value than the other – but “god†must’ve thought so, if “he†interceded.

Second, if we can’t know why “god†interceded in one case but not the other, we can’t know in WHICH case the intercession took place! If “god†only steps in occasionally in this way, leaving one to suffer horribly while sparing another, there is absolutely NOTHING logically incorrect in assuming that the REVERSE may have occurred: TJ’s escape was simply bad marksmanship that “god†left unmodified, but “god†stepped in and mad SURE that one of the gang’s bullets killed the six year old, which wouldn’t have happened had “god†just left the gang’s random marksmanship alone.

If “god†sees fit to step in and spare one life and leave another to the ravages of nature, there’s no logical difference between that and “god†seeing fit to step in and terminate one life and leaving another to be spared by nature. One lives, one dies, BOTH outcomes the result of “god’s†decision to act in one case, and not act in another.

Perhaps “god†interceded in BOTH instances – sparing TJ and assuring the six year old took a bullet in the mouth. WE CAN’T KNOW FOR CERTAIN, if we assume intercession WHOSE REASONING IS BEYOND OUR ABILITY TO FATHOM – as it MUST be if we can’t answer why TJ’s life would be spared but the six year old’s life snuffed painfully out.

To my mind, trained in reason, the most LIKELY assumption is that NEITHER incident was affected by supernatural intervention: TJ was the lucky beneficiary of bad marksmanship, nothing more, nothing less, and the unfortunate six year old in Oakland suffered the consequences of random crossfire, nothing more, nothing less. And if we would seek to minimize our suffering, we should look to OURSELVES, not to some inscrutable supernatural force whose actions are beyond ability to comprehend.

I’m of course very GLAD TJ escaped harm. But WE have to intercede OURSELVES in how we behave so that guns don’t get fired in the first place, either at TJ, or in the Oakland neighborhood between gangs, and STOP thinking that some “god†will save us.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA